Mirrorless camera and adapter combination?

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#1

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by cwilli62 » Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:27 pm

Hello,

I'm new to this forum. I did quite a bit of reading on this particular topic and learned a lot...but am still lost. What a wormhole for someone new to the camera world!

I have an LW i4 plan trinocular microscope. I am heavily leaning toward purchasing a mirrorless camera but am lost after that initial thought. I do mostly soil and compost samples at 100x and 400x total mag. My goal is to have the largest FOV and a good frame rate for live viewing through a screen so that I can use a screen to view samples and live share both locally and over the web (instead of using the eyepieces).

So I hope that is enough information to at least get the conversation started on what I may need. I don't fully understand what features are essential for a mirrorless camera and what kind of adapters fit on different microscopes. My scope has a C-mount with the set screw.

Also, do people take the headpiece off and attach cameras to the body? Or do most people use the mounts that are on the headpiece?

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Microscopy_is_fun

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Re: Mirrorless camera and adapter combination?

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#2

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by Microscopy_is_fun » Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:53 pm

Hi cwilli,

first welcome to the forum!

Your microscope is a setup with infinity optics, which makes camera adaptations rather simple and straightforward.

It's certainly better to attach the camera to the trinocular port. From the manual it seems that your trinocular head is equipped with a c-mount, which is the standard mount for most microscopes. The field of view of the i4, according to the specs is 20mm with the widefield-eypieces. You now have to decide, if you want to have the full circular field of view projected onto the camera sensor. For that, you need to attach a camera to the trinocular port which has a sensor size of at least 20x20mm² (e.g. a full format camera). In this case, you wouldn't need any intermediate optics, but you will always have the black edges surrounding the circular field of view on your images.

If you want a rectangular image without black borders, you need a sensor with a DIAGONAL smaller 20mm. You will then lose some of the image information due to cropping, but you do not take care about any black edges.

Many suppliers of microscopes also provide intermediate optics for the trinocular port to enlarge/shrink the image size to fit the sensor size.

In any case you will need an adapter that converts from c-mount to the specific mount of your camera.

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Re: Mirrorless camera and adapter combination?

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#3

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by cwilli62 » Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:38 pm

Thanks for the welcome and for the information. That is a really helpful breakdown. It may not be as complicated as I thought it was. Sounds like sensor size is the main consideration. And the next would be full FOV with vignetting or slightly smaller FOV without.

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Re: Mirrorless camera and adapter combination?

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by cwilli62 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:35 am

Sorry...for clarification:

I can mount the camera body (without lens) directly to the C mount if I have the correct adapter piece, correct?

I'm looking at the Canon EOS M50 (first version). So I would need an adapter that will go from the body of the EOS to C mount, if I have that right. Any suggestions on such an adapter?

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Re: Mirrorless camera and adapter combination?

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by Scarodactyl » Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:36 am

If it were my system I would take the c mount adapter off, since its inner diameter will be smaller than your camera's sensor. This does make for harder adapting and will require some measurements and buying parts or having them 3d printed. The objectives may be rated for 20mm but it likely won't be black immediately around that, and the image past the edges may still be good or at least usable. If you find only the center portion is usable a 1.5x or 2x teleconverter would efficiently resize the image.

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Re: Mirrorless camera and adapter combination?

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#6

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by Microscopy_is_fun » Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:55 am

cwilli62 wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:35 am

I can mount the camera body (without lens) directly to the C mount if I have the correct adapter piece, correct?

Yes, that's correct. This is one of the big benefits when using infinity optics: The objective projects an image to infinity. The tube lens corrects (almost) all lens errors of the objective and projects a real image that can directly be taken up by the camera sensor.

If you take an mft-camera (13x17,3mm² sensor size) and put the settings to 1:1 aspect ratio, your sensor will become a 13x13mm sensor, corresponding to 18,4mm sensor diagonal. If the field of view of your microscope is somehow larger than the 20mm diameter from the data sheet (which might be the case), then you have a simple and economic solution at hand, without any vignetting. The required c-mount-to-mft-adapter can be purchased for around 10$.

If you use your EOS M50 (APS-C sensor), you might need the intermediate optics which Scarodactyl is referring to. But you need to bear in mind that this type of setup does not give you any advantage in terms of resolution and/or dynamics compared to the setup without intermediate optics and smaller sensor, assuming that both sensors have the same number of pixels. This is different to conventional photography, where you gain some performance when using larger sensors.

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Re: Mirrorless camera and adapter combination?

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by cwilli62 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:05 pm

Microscopy_is_fun wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:55 am

Yes, that's correct. This is one of the big benefits when using infinity optics: The objective projects an image to infinity. The tube lens corrects (almost) all lens errors of the objective and projects a real image that can directly be taken up by the camera sensor.

If you take an mft-camera (13x17,3mm² sensor size) and put the settings to 1:1 aspect ratio, your sensor will become a 13x13mm sensor, corresponding to 18,4mm sensor diagonal. If the field of view of your microscope is somehow larger than the 20mm diameter from the data sheet (which might be the case), then you have a simple and economic solution at hand, without any vignetting. The required c-mount-to-mft-adapter can be purchased for around 10$.

If you use your EOS M50 (APS-C sensor), you might need the intermediate optics which Scarodactyl is referring to. But you need to bear in mind that this type of setup does not give you any advantage in terms of resolution and/or dynamics compared to the setup without intermediate optics and smaller sensor, assuming that both sensors have the same number of pixels. This is different to conventional photography, where you gain some performance when using larger sensors.

Thank you so much for the assistance. I really appreciate it. I'm still way over my head here and questions lead to more questions. I definitely don't want to go overboard and have a lot of functionality that I don't need. I like the suggestion of mft, as the sensor size seems to be large enough but not over kill.

So doing the math and assuming that 12mp is far more than enough while using 10x or 40x objective on my microscopy...and with mainly wanting to do live viewing on a computer with some pictures taken and video recorded in HD. Would there be any advantage of getting something like:

Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mirrorless MFT (Micro Four Thirds) Digital Camera

Vs. something older with less features like:

Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF2 Mirrorless Micro Four Thirds Digital Camera?

All I plan to use it for is the scope so I don't care about anything else that the cameras can do, really.

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Re: Mirrorless camera and adapter combination?

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#8

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by blekenbleu » Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:26 pm

cwilli62 wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:35 am

I can mount the camera body (without lens) directly to the C mount if I have the correct adapter piece, correct?

That depends very much on exactly what sort of C mount you have.

If it is only mechanical, with no lens between the current sensor and the trinocular chimney,

that means the microscope's tube lens is focusing on that sensor,

and you would need to maintain that precise sensor spacing for capturing images without refocusing

and would be constrained to that image size.

Otherwise, some alternative relay lens will be wanted to rescale the tube lens image to fit your new camera.

I'm looking at the Canon EOS M50 (first version).

So I would need an adapter that will go from the body of the EOS to C mount,

if I have that right. Any suggestions on such an adapter?

Cheaper solutions involve getting a generic EF-M to M42 or T2 adapter, e.g.:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2255800990201232.html

... then converting from whatever the LW i4 trinocular "chimney" has to M42 or T2.

If your I4 trinocular chimney has 2 sections, as shown on some web pages,

getting a new camera's sensor precisely parfocal with eyepieces may involve

removing the upper chimney, obtaining some extension tubes and a focusing helicoid.

Optiphot 1, 66; AO 10, 120, EPIStar, Cycloptic

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Re: Mirrorless camera and adapter combination?

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#9

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by jfiresto » Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:55 pm

cwilli62 wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:05 pm

... So doing the math and assuming that 12mp is far more than enough while using 10x or 40x objective on my microscopy...and with mainly wanting to do live viewing on a computer with some pictures taken and video recorded in HD. Would there be any advantage of getting something like:

Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mirrorless MFT (Micro Four Thirds) Digital Camera

Vs. something older with less features like:

Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF2 Mirrorless Micro Four Thirds Digital Camera?

All I plan to use it for is the scope so I don't care about anything else that the cameras can do, really.

Do either of those provide live HDMI out?

The DMC-GX80/GX85 is one of the oldest Panasonic models that has live 4K HDMI and an electronic shutter. A few of us are using that. You will probably want the E-M1's electronic shutter. The mechanical shutters of old µ4/3rds models suffer greater shutter shock. Olympus addressed some of that with their EFCS which is good enough at low magnifications. Both Olympus and Panasonic further reduced it by redesigning the shutter.

-John

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Re: Mirrorless camera and adapter combination?

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#10

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by Microscopy_is_fun » Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:44 pm

cwilli62 wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:05 pm

So doing the math and assuming that 12mp is far more than enough while using 10x or 40x objective on my microscopy...and with mainly wanting to do live viewing on a computer with some pictures taken and video recorded in HD. Would there be any advantage of getting something like:

Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mirrorless MFT (Micro Four Thirds) Digital Camera

Vs. something older with less features like:

Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF2 Mirrorless Micro Four Thirds Digital Camera?

The issue in my view: Nowadays, there are so many very good camera options for microscopy, that picking one is a real challenge.

I therefore just tell about the setup I use, knowing that others will work as well. I am using an mft camera (Panasonic G9) at my trinocular port without intermediate optics, and I really like it for the following reason:

(1) The attachment is quite compact (see picture below), avoiding potential problems with mechanical stability

(2) The available electronic shutter is another benefit for avoiding unsharp pictures due to shutter-shock

(3) I don't need to do any cropping in post-processing, since the FOV of my objectives nicely fits the camera sensor.

(4) The tilt and swivel display is helpful when taking pictures without being connected to a computer

(5) There is a well working app available to connect to the PC, which is especially helpful when taking videos

(6) image quality and resolution are very good, leaving plenty of headroom for image processing of the obtained pictures and videos

My personal opinion: Preparing the samples and performing the proper steps during image processing (Photoshop, Lightroom, video editor, ..) is the most important part if you want to get nice images. The camera needs to deliver, but most modern cameras will do that. Below are two images taken with my setup.

IMG_20220531_205224.jpg

IMG_20220531_205224.jpg (123.23 KiB) Viewed 1043 times

2021-02-12 19-45-02 (C,Smoothing4)_edit_scale.jpg

2021-02-12 19-45-02 (C,Smoothing4)_edit_scale.jpg (195.25 KiB) Viewed 1043 times

P1002356-Pano-Edit.jpg

P1002356-Pano-Edit.jpg (290.22 KiB) Viewed 1043 times

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Re: Mirrorless camera and adapter combination?

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#11

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by cwilli62 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:12 pm

jfiresto wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:55 pm

Do either of those provide live HDMI out?

The DMC-GX80/GX85 is one of the oldest Panasonic models that has live 4K HDMI and an electronic shutter. A few of us are using that. You will probably want the E-M1's electronic shutter. The mechanical shutters of old µ4/3rds models suffer greater shutter shock. Olympus addressed some of that with their EFCS which is good enough at low magnifications. Both Olympus and Panasonic further reduced it by redesigning the shutter.

Right. I hardly even know what to look for in a camera for the setup that I am wanting. HDMI out....check.

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#12

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by cwilli62 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:17 pm

This is a lot to process. :shock:

I went with a used Olympus OM-D E M1 Mark II. I got a good deal on it and it seemed like a good option for what I am looking for (I think). Hopefully, it will serve me for some years before I am ready to upgrade. And I ordered a generic C to M4/3 adapter piece. If it doesn't get me to where I need to go, I'll figure it out after those two pieces get here. The info provided here by the community has been a great help.

Next up on my list is researching the best way to get live video from the camera to the computer!

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Re: Mirrorless camera and adapter combination?

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by imkap » Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:06 am

cwilli62 wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:17 pm

Next up on my list is researching the best way to get live video from the camera to the computer!

It is easy with a mirrorless. Probably there is Olympus software you can use.

I use a HDMI cable directly to TV...

Zeiss Standard GFL + Sony a6000

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Re: Mirrorless camera and adapter combination?

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#14

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by jfiresto » Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:05 am

cwilli62 wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:17 pm

I went with a used Olympus OM-D E M1 Mark II. I got a good deal on it and it seemed like a good option for what I am looking for (I think).... Next up on my list is researching the best way to get live video from the camera to the computer!

I did some quick checking and only found one possible gotcha: it appears you may have trouble tilting the LCD screen while the camera is connected to a computer or external monitor. Otherwise, everything looks really good.

I trust you have found this OM capture page?

-John

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Re: Mirrorless camera and adapter combination?

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by Tom Jones » Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:13 pm

Be aware that video usually does not use the full sensor. :cry: Look in your camera specs to see the pixel dimensions and you can calculate the physical size of the part of the sensor being used for the resolution you have chosen. Each of the various video formats will use a different set of pixel dimensions (unless over-sampled from a larger higher res image) and therefore different dimensions on the sensor. The differences can be dramatic. So projection requirements will be different to get the biggest part of the image onto the useable part of the sensor. Essentially it changes the crop factor each time you use a different video resolution.

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Re: Mirrorless camera and adapter combination?

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#16

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by cwilli62 » Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:44 pm

jfiresto wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:05 am

I did some quick checking and only found one possible gotcha: it appears you may have trouble tilting the LCD screen while the camera is connected to a computer or external monitor. Otherwise, everything looks really good.

I trust you have found this OM capture page?

I got the camera and am trying to get to a good place with viewing samples on the computer. I did read about Olympus Capture. Downloaded it and it seems pretty good for taking my scope and compter places to share with others. The issue, as feared, is that I have a lot of vignetting. With Olympus Capture, I couldn't figure out how to zoom in a specified amount (not with their pre-set live zoom settings) to try to get past the vignetting and also to get the image to be larger. There is no way to get good counts by only using the program unless I can figure out how to make the image larger.

For direct connection to a monitor via HDMI, I got 540 um horizontally and 480 um vertically. The eyepiece FOV has a diameter of 450 um, so there is actually a small increase in FOV size with the camera.

I set the camera to an aspect ratio of 16:9. And I have a 0.5x reducer lens from LW Scientific. Overall, I am satisfied with this but would still like to enlarge the picture somehow, if possible, to get a larger view of the FOV so I am not squinting all of the time. The actual image is nice and crisp and clear, though!

Edit: Here are a couple of pictures of the setup and the view hooked up directly to the monitor.

Pic 1.jpg

Pic 1.jpg (97.94 KiB) Viewed 838 times

Pic 2.jpg

Pic 2.jpg (112.88 KiB) Viewed 838 times

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Re: Mirrorless camera and adapter combination?

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by imkap » Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:02 pm

If you move the camera further up with a macro extension ring or something the image should be larger on the sensor. Won't have larger FOV of course.

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by blekenbleu » Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:45 pm

You could try removing that 0.5X lens.

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#19

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by Scarodactyl » Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:59 pm

Yeah, 0.5x is not really what's called for on this sensor and going direct onto it should give a nicely sized image.

That is an impressively large field for a 0.5x adapter to project though.

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#20

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by cwilli62 » Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:55 am

EDITED:

Great. So it sounds like getting the camera closer to the microscope may solve the problem if I am interpreting y'all correctly. When I disassemble the adapter and take the reducing lens out, placing the camera directly on the spacer ring or directly on the head of the microscope, all of the vignetting is gone and the FOV is approx. 520 um horizontally and 300 um vertically. Please forgive my ignorance on this topic...I don't really understand how the adapters work...but is there a middle ground? An adapter with a different magnification that would put me somewhere between the 0.5x I have now and no intermediate lens? Although, I suppose that the view with no vignetting and a smaller FOV as shown in the picture isn't too bad either when all is said and done because if I have my math right then the area of FOV without the 0.5x reducer is the same as the area of the circular FOV through the eyepieces.

Pic 3.jpg

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Re: Mirrorless camera and adapter combination?

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#21

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by Microscopy_is_fun » Sun Jul 03, 2022 6:47 am

Your setup looks very good! In addition to the 0,5x lens, many manufacturers also provide 0,63x lenses. But in your case, the setup without any lens seems to work very well, why change it?

Overall you have a very compact and usable system, congratulation! The E-M1 camera will deliver high-quality images, in terms of resolution as well as colour and dynamics.

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#22

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by blekenbleu » Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:29 pm

cwilli62 wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:55 am

I don't really understand how the adapters work...but is there a middle ground? An adapter with a different magnification

that would put me somewhere between the 0.5x I have now and no intermediate lens?

Although, I suppose that the view with no vignetting and a smaller FOV as shown in the picture isn't too bad either

when all is said and done because if I have my math right then the area of FOV without the 0.5x reducer

is the same as the area of the circular FOV through the eyepieces.

In theory, each microscope manufacturer can tweak lens geometries

so that objectives and oculars (or relay lens for photo and/or tube lens for infinity scopes)

work together for best image quality. In practice

- many nominally finite scopes employ additional optics around prisms or other components between objectives and oculars

- some eyepiece corrections are relatively subtle, allowing substitutions with acceptable image quality impact

Since you are satisfied with the current configuration, namely objective directly to camera sensor,

this implies that objective is relatively well corrected by itself. With no additional optics,

image size on the camera sensor will change with different spacing,

e.g. by extension tubes, bellows and/or helicoid, but

- camera would no longer be parfocal with oculars

- camera image artifacts and distortions will increase

Artifacts can be minimized for different fields of view by introducing suitable relay (AKA projection)

(e.g. your 0.5X) lenses at the photo port between objectives and then camera sensor.

Alternatively, you can go afocal, with an ocular matching your eyepieces at the photo port

and some regular camera lens centered over it,

e.g. using step-down filter rings and perhaps some clamp around the photo tube.

A camera lens of about 40mm works well for APS-C sensors and 10x eyepieces,

or a zoom lens will allow incremental field-of-view adjustments.

Ideally, that camera lens should neither change length nor rotate

when being refocused or zoomed. Otherwise,

some other means for securing the camera's positioning is wanted.

As in other photography, image quality is typically better from primes than zooms.

Some primes twist and/or change length when refocusing.

Optiphot 1, 66; AO 10, 120, EPIStar, Cycloptic

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#23

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by andywright » Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:04 pm

Congratulations on your rig!

I think another important point is the ability of the camera to have an exposure metering with old unchipped manual glass. Nikon 1 V2 for example does not have that ability, so I have to use the Nikon F adapter that has a chip to fool the camera into thinking it has a modern lens attached.

It is definitely possible to make a shot without metering, but it is no fun.

photo_2022-07-03_16-55-08.jpg

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by blekenbleu » Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:34 pm

andywright wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:04 pm

Nikon F adapter that has a chip to fool the camera into thinking it has a modern lens attached.

It is definitely possible to make a shot without metering, but it is no fun.

There are a number of aftermarket camera adapters, nominally intended for either telescopes or microscopes,

which convert from camera-specific lens connector to e.g. M52, M42 or T2 thread

(then using other adapters from e.g. T2 to microscope-specific clamp, tube or thread).

Some of those camera adapters, typically not from camera's manufacture,

include a chip for what may be called focus confirm or similar.

Optiphot 1, 66; AO 10, 120, EPIStar, Cycloptic

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#25

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by cwilli62 » Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:26 pm

I purchased this adapter intended for Nikon microscopes. The photo port on the LW i4 is 38.1 mm so I am hoping that this 38mm to C mount adapter will work. The picture that I took above was with the camera just sitting on top of the photo port but not mounted.

https://a.co/d/d8fSrSy

I also purchased a dummy battery so that I can work as long as I want and don't have to worry about the charge.

Everyone's advice and experience is much appreciated.

Another question related to the actual camera. Do you all know what the setting on the camera is called that allows it to auto-adjust to the light source from the microscope? I want to disable it because I can't adjust the light intensity or the Iris diaphragm without the camera automatically adjusting and going back to the same brightness level.

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#26

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by jfiresto » Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:31 am

cwilli62 wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:26 pm

I purchased this adapter intended for Nikon microscopes. The photo port on the LW i4 is 38.1 mm so I am hoping that this 38mm to C mount adapter will work.... https://a.co/d/d8fSrSy

That is the approach a couple of us took to add Olympus and Panasonic MFT cameras to Wild microscopes with ISO 38mm photo ports. It works quite well. This thread flushes out the geometry a c-mount to MFT thread adapter had to have to spin fully on to the c-mount and remain parfocal.

Another question related to the actual camera. Do you all know what the setting on the camera is called that allows it to auto-adjust to the light source from the microscope? I want to disable it....

I would try the camera in Shutter Priority (S) mode (cf. p. 29) and program/use a top dial to change the shutter speed. To the camera, the microscope looks like a manual focus lens. Try focus peaking. 8-)

-John

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#27

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by cwilli62 » Sat Jul 09, 2022 11:29 pm

Awesome. I'll check out that thread.

And will do concerning your recommendations on the camera settings.

Cheers!