How much will a DIC microscope cost me?

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by Roundel »

I am looking to get into microscopy on top of my 15 year photography career. I am used to only the highest quality gear but am very willing to buy used. What sort of reasonable setup would one need with DIC to get the kind of results at the microscopic level that one would get with the highest end glass at a macroscopic level? I am willing to learn new techniques as needed. Thanks!

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Re: How much will a DIC microscope cost me?

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by rjlittlefield »

Some general indication may be provided by the systems shown at https://microscopecentral.com/collectio ... iality_dic .

Be sure to read the details; some of the systems are expandable to include DIC but the quoted price does not include DIC components.

--Rik

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PeteM

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Re: How much will a DIC microscope cost me?

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by PeteM »

I'm about to put up three different DIC microscopes locally - at especially good prices for someone willing to lend a hand to our "Micronaut" program. If you happen to be in the Bay Area, CA you might want to send a PM.

Here are some brief thoughts about what you might want to consider, assuming you want a transmitted light DIC system.

For any DIC system, you'll want a bright 100-watt tungsten-halogen light source. While retrofits and pricey new systems with LEDS are available, few of them match these in terms of full-spectrum output and intensity. As you probably already know, simple polarization comes for "free" with a DIC system and is wonderful for petrographic, meteorite, chemical crystal, and other birefringent specimens. In addition, those new to DIC often see what seem like attractive prices on something like a used Nikon DIC microscope. It's often for reflected light only. Some reflected DIC systems get by with a single DIC prism. Some transmitted systems may have as many as nine or so prisms placed in the condenser and above the objectives. Each transmitted DIC prism can be on the order of $500 used and $1000 up new.

"Finite" DIC microscopes such as Nikon Optiphot, Olympus BHS, and Zeiss Standard models are somewhat commonly available and can provide excellent images. American Optical, Reichert, and Leitz versions can also be decent but rarely appear on the used market. One limitation of this generation of microscopes, with the exception of the Optiphot, is that they require compensating eyepieces. To get the best image you'll need to use a matching photo relay lens or afocal setup - with the image going through that extra glass. In addition, you're typically limited to a 20mm Field Number, though wide field heads and tube lenses are available. That said, the images can still be stunning and these will be the most affordable choices.

Some specific comments:

- Olympus BHS. These have a single DIC prism slider above the turret and individual prisms for the DIC condenser. The upper prism is the hardest part to find. Two versions of DIC condenser are available. The most common ones had 10-40-100x or 10-20-40-100x prisms fixed in place. The better unit has individually replaceable prisms. It's more flexible, but the right individual prisms are sometimes hard to find. The DIC image is good with either SPlan or SPlan Apo objectives - and often usable with DPlan Apo objectives. Your specimens are probably best imaged through a 2.5x relay lens to a full-frame sensor.

- Nikon Optiphot or Microphot. Nikon made two finite DIC systems. The most common one had a single DIC prism slider above the turret and a condenser with 20-40-100x prisms. It lacks low-magnfication DIC and doesn't offer a whole lot of options but provides DIC images I find slightly superior (better contrast) to Olympus. The rarer Nikon system used individual prisms in the nosepiece and turret. It provides far greater flexibility (if you could ever find the bits), very good images, and some slight advantages (the "chrome free" optics, along with the earlier systems) in hooking up a camera.

- Zeiss Standard, WL etc. systems came in four incarnations. Users have taken outstanding DIC images with them, but the complexities of finding optics without delamination and finding suitable projection optics make them (IMO) a third choice here in the US, where fewer used parts seem to be available. If you're in Europe the situation may be different.

From your description, I think you'd be better served by one of the more modern "infinite" systems such as Leica DM, Nikon Eclipse, Olympus BX, and perhaps Bestscope or Zeiss. The optics will typically have better coatings. It will often be easier to link anything from a C-Mount through APS-C to full-frame camera to their trinocular heads since most corrections will be in the objective. You can even use just a bare tube lens for a system dedicated to photography.

- Nikon Eclipse E600, E800, 80i, etc. This would be my top choice for DIC imaging. The wider barrels (25mm threads) and longer (60mm) parfocal lengths allow objectives with longer working distances and still excellent contrast. An astoundingly good 20x Plan Apo objective is available for a fraction of its original near-$3000 price due to it being used in a now surplus gene sequencer. Nikon's Plan Fluor objectives are readily available for less than both an arm and a leg and are excellent for DIC. Used Eclipse systems, reasonably configured, typically sell for around $8K to $18K. Nikon makes a newer version of this system with two instead of three DIC prisms in the condenser and a wide range (but slightly different) set of individual prisms in the turret. In the visible range, I don't see any advantage in terms of image quality and higher costs in this latest version.

- Olympus BX (BX50 etc.) models. These use standard RMS thread objective and DIN standard 45mm parfocal lengths and are a very close second to Nikon image quality IMO. You'll pay more like $700 for a used Olympus 20x S Plan Apo than the $150 or so for the superior (IMO) Nikon. Olympus uses a single upper sliding prism but makes those prisms in standard and higher contrast or lower contrast but higher resolution versions. I slightly prefer Nikon Eclipse to BX images, but only have experience with the standard Olympus sliders. UPlan Fl (or newer FLN) objectives work fine for DIC. Plan Apos rob a tiny bit of contrast with slightly better corrections. Price ranges are about the same as Nikon Eclipse.

- Leica DM. I've had/have Leica DMR and a few DMLB systems. The DMR is massive. The DMLB and DM2500, DM3000 etc. systems are sized about the same as Nikon Eclipse and Olympus BX. I'm very fond of the DIC image quality on these systems - on par with Nikon Eclipse - and would enthusiastically recommend one except for two things. First, there were two versions (Delta and HC) of optics and you don't want to mix optics. That's easily avoided once you figure out what's what. Second, Leica still does some corrections in the eyepieces and it's a bit harder to find the relay optics to properly hook up a camera. Get those parts right, though, and I think you'd be happy. PL Fluor objectives are probably the sweet spot for DIC.

- Bestscope. Probably the only reasonably affordable option for a new DIC system would be something like a Chinese-made Bestscope. Unlike the other scopes listed, I haven't owned and used one of these. However, I have had several of their "NIS60" objectives, which are meant to be Nikon Eclipse clones. I rate them at least a half-step behind the genuine articles. I've been told a fully configured DIC Bestscope will be around $10-$15K, Personally, I'd prefer a used good condition Eclipse, BX, or DM scope which will be (with patience) thousands less and a better microscope.

- Zeiss makes a full line including DIC microscopes. I've been put off by some of their design choices (e.g. shortest reference tube length) and pricey (at least here in the US) offerings and don't have any direct experience. I do know that some local researchers, wanting multiple imaging options in an inverted microscope, have settled on $60-$80,000 Zeiss scopes. Way out of my league . . .

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IMAGOμM

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Re: How much will a DIC microscope cost me?

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by IMAGOμM »

This is my first post in Photomacrography.net and let me say hello to the users of this wonderful site, which has kept me company during the total lockdown in the Covid era and taught me so many things about high magnification macroscopy and microscopy. Thanks to all those who have posted comprehensive, creative and often insightful information on the many technical and naturalistic aspects of photographing the smallest objects.

PeteM wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 05, 2024 8:15 pm

- Leica DM. I've had/have Leica DMR and a few DMLB systems. The DMR is massive. The DMLB and DM2500, DM3000 etc. systems are sized about the same as Nikon Eclipse and Olympus BX. I'm very fond of the DIC image quality on these systems - on par with Nikon Eclipse - and would enthusiastically recommend one except for two things. First, there were two versions (Delta and HC) of optics and you don't want to mix optics. That's easily avoided once you figure out what's what. Second, Leica still does some corrections in the eyepieces and it's a bit harder to find the relay optics to properly hook up a camera. Get those parts right, though, and I think you'd be happy. PL Fluor objectives are probably the sweet spot for DIC.

Leica is certainly very reluctant to adopt total correction of aberrations directly in the objectives and still today relies on the correction of some of these in the tube lenses. However, I do not believe that the latest series of infinite conjugate microscopes also adopt corrections in the eyepieces. The reason for this opinion of mine lies in the tests conducted on my Leica DM4000 B microscope. The microscope is equipped with about fifteen objectives both Leica and Leitz (RMS); fluor and Apo; /0.17 and /0,; BF, polarizers and PH. The Leitzs require a 220 mm tube lens while the HCs 200 mm. The 10% difference in the magnification factor is however tolerable.

I equipped the microscope with a simple 1x photographic adapter, without glasses, connected to an M43 camera. In the comparison between the photographic image and that produced by the Leica HC Plan s 10x/25 eyepieces even at high magnification I see no differences in the lateral and longitudinal CAs, in the flatness and in the distortion both with the most recent HC objectives and with the old Leitz. I don't have the original 1x Leica phototube available, but from the images I can see online it doesn't look like it has lenses, which would be necessary if there were some correction in the eyepieces. Obviously it is possible that some differences actually exist: in this case, however, they must be really minimal. On the other hand, Leica marketing material generically mentions "corrections in the tube lens and eyepieces" for their microscopes.

The main problems of the Leica are other.

1) The more expensive series are equipped with an internal computer that activates some parameters for each objective, such as the field diaphragm, the aperture diaphragm, the brightness of the lamp and so on. Some of these parameters are manually adaptable, others are not. This makes it difficult to insert new objectives, such as, for example, those for the phase difference. You would need to have the adjustment software, which I have not yet been able to find, and try to make it work on current PCs with a USB / RS232C adapter.

2) If the objectives are easy to find, the accessories, obviously used, to complete the setup of the microscope according to your needs are much less so. In fact, often practically unobtainable. When you manage to find one, you sometimes discover that the seller - usually a professional operator - cannot sell in your country. And the costs are astronomical. For example: I was looking for a simple rotatable polar analyzer. I found it but the seller specified that he could not ship it to my country... even at the price of about $ 1500 (taxes included). Close to the cost of my polarizing dia-episcopic microscope, Chinese but of excellent quality (including analyzer, lambda phase shifters and everything else).

In fact, for the accessories added to the DM4000 B: phototube, flash lighting, diascopic lighting, polarizing cubes, polarizer, analyzer, stepping motor and so on I had to make do with DIY solutions, which also worked perfectly.

Finally, I must add that if the objectives are splendid, the mechanical/electronic workmanship of the microscope is very good but certainly not exceptional (IMO). The quality/price ratio is therefore not very favorable.

For all these reasons, I can advise against purchasing a Leica microscope, suggesting instead to orient oneself towards Olympus and Nikon models, more accessible, with more readily available accessories and better documentation (on the Leica Microsystems website the only documentation available on the DM4000 B, a small user manual, is in Japanese...).

As a confirmation of what has been said, it is very rare to find Leica microscopes mentioned in the possession of members of this and other sites dedicated to microscopy.

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PeteM

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Re: How much will a DIC microscope cost me?

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by PeteM »

IMAGO, welcome to this wonderful forum.

I fully agree with your point about computer-controlled microscopes - and it applies to other brands as well. While automating such things as the turret, condenser, focus, image capture etc. improves productivity in a lab setting, the combination of software and hardware failures, lack of support for older systems, digital rights shenanigans leading to premature obsolescence, more difficult maintenance, etc. make older computer-controlled systems a poor choice for most hobbyists. It's far better, IMO, for a typical hobbyist to add their own and much less expensive support for things like automated focus stacking.

Your observations about minimal Leica eyepiece corrections are interesting. As you said, Leica itself proudly states that it "harmoniously" distributes corrections for chromatic, spherical, coma, out-of-plane corrections between the objective, tube lens, and eyepieces. I found it difficult to get really good images on my system until sourcing an "HC" photo relay lens, but I haven't been rigorous in evaluating this. I was trying to use most of the entire 25mm Field Number - that might have been a factor.

The only automated scope I have is an old Nikon Microphot-FXA - and that one had almost all the old 35mm-photo-era electronics stripped out:

https://www.microbehunter.com/microscop ... xa#p145663

In the US, somewhat complete Leica HC systems show up several times a year on eBay, with the DMLB a good example. One has to be careful to notice the difference between Delta and HC optics, particularly heads for the DMR series, but sometimes a good value appears. I've been able to supply a couple of our Micronaut mentors with DIC scopes for as little as $3K - though that one with some limitations in terms of prisms. Recently, however, I've noticed objective prices have been trending much higher. This seems to come and go over periods of months or years as vendors tend to look at "for sale" rather than "sold" prices in setting their own eBay (Craigslist, etc.) prices. Someone wanting a specific model of a DIC microscope may need considerable patience.

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IMAGOμM

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Re: How much will a DIC microscope cost me?

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by IMAGOμM »

Leica Microsystems almost certainly has a user base consisting almost exclusively of large research or public institutions. It is therefore not surprising that they do not provide any technical information and ignore their own vintage products and the (potential) hobby market. Their WEB site is full of advertising rants and lacks technical information, unlike the beautiful Nikon and Zeiss sites, just to name two brands as appreciated as Leica. However the "official" statement is that with the HC system lateral CA and astigmatism can be corrected in the eyepieces. The fact is that I do not see any lateral CA in the image of the sensor of my M43 compared to the image provided by the eyepiece. I recognize however that such a comparison is difficult to establish, since I cannot photograph the image of the eyepiece without introducing other and worse aberrations. Astigmatism should be tested with very expensive high resolution optics unless it is very obvious and I do not see any blurring along different meridians, even looking at the difficult silicon wafers.

A fact: no compatible Leica DM trinocular port adapter 1x currently on the market has glass inside. That must mean something.

It would be interesting if some of the forum members had both a glass-free 1x adapter and a 2.5x HC relay lens and could make some comparisons. However, as far as I know, Leica has never produced such a lens, suggesting the use of an 8x eyepiece and their 0.32x lens, i.e. an afocal configuration. Some other manufacturers of photographic accessories offer 2.5x relay lenses with a Leica dovetail adapter but since these optics can also be coupled to microscopes of other brands I strongly doubt that they are in any way correct.

As for the electronic automation of microscopes, what you say is unfortunately true. In fact, I chose the DM series instead of the older DMR precisely with the hope that it will last at least as long as I do {-o<

I fear that with these notations I am going off the original topic of the thread. Eventually, if there is anything else to add, it would be good to open another thread.

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Scarodactyl

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Re: How much will a DIC microscope cost me?

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by Scarodactyl »

M43 is only a 22mm fov.

I need to sell my E800 with dic, I am not using it enough. They're huge so kind of a pain to ship though.

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IMAGOμM

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Re: How much will a DIC microscope cost me?

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by IMAGOμM »

Scarodactyl wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 07, 2024 4:46 am

M43 is only a 22mm fov.

I'll take it to the tailor to try to stretch it. :)

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houstontx

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Re: How much will a DIC microscope cost me?

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by houstontx »

Scarodactyl wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 07, 2024 4:46 am

M43 is only a 22mm fov.

I need to sell my E800 with dic, I am not using it enough. They're huge so kind of a pain to ship though.

Where are you located and How much? please pm me tks

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Rorschach

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Re: How much will a DIC microscope cost me?

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by Rorschach »

I would go for a biological (transmitted light) Reichert Polyvar if you come across one with a complete DIC system. Very hard to get better than that, unless you are willing to pay a lot (really quite a lot!). It's also pretty universal, as the DIC condenser also allows phase, darkfield and brightfield. And, as someone mentioned, simple polarization always comes with DIC.

Polyvar also allows epi fluorescence and the filter cubes seem to be quite readily available. It has a super-steady huge stand, which is great for reducing vibrations, has a built-in mag changer (usually 0.8x, 1.0x, 1.25x and a Bertrand lens), and it provides extremely wide views (about the same as a Leitz Orthoplan or Aristoplan). Lastly, it's pretty easy to equip for reflected light, too. The changeover involves just replacing the transmitted light objective revolver with the one for transmitted (with the corresponding lenses) and inserting desired filter cubes (pol, BF or DF). The internal 100W halogen serves either transmitted or reflected by just turning a simple lever on the side of the scope.

The other option I would consider is a Leitz Dialux (20 or 22) which, when equipped for transmitted DIC, can be bought for around 5000-6000 euros in Germany. Not nearly as universal as a Polyvar but very high quality and a small table foot-print.

Both the Polyvar and the Leitz can be easily LEDized for about 500-600 euros. There's a guy in Germany who does these conversions and his LEDs are easily as powerful as the 100W halogen is. Other LED-conversions are available also, including in the UK and US.

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Boron

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Re: How much will a DIC microscope cost me?

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by Boron »

DIC is a very expensive technique.

I currently have 3 different sets, two Nikon (modern Ni and former infinite E) and also Olympus BX.

In terms of quality all perform excellent, however my favourite is the Nikon Ni modern DIC set.

No matter for which one you would go it costs a lot of money.

For this set (mostly second hand, years of looking for parts), all imported from US, including import tax I paid around 14kUS$.

Image

Other modern sets would cost similar money. Maybe less as the above pictured is really packed with stuff.

Of course adding top range DIC capable objectives is another chapter of this story.

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Roundel

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Re: How much will a DIC microscope cost me?

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by Roundel »

PeteM wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 05, 2024 8:15 pm

I'm about to put up three different DIC microscopes locally - at especially good prices for someone willing to lend a hand to our "Micronaut" program. If you happen to be in the Bay Area, CA you might want to send a PM.

Thanks for the really detailed reply! I will be messaging you.

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Adam Long

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Re: How much will a DIC microscope cost me?

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by Adam Long »

It is possible to get into DIC on a more limited budget. I initially went for Zeiss mainly because I have a few Batis and Loxia photo lenses I've been very impressed with. Although most Zeiss finite system items will be >50 years old now, the quality is very good. Your technique will likely be a bigger limitation.

I have a Zeiss Universal which was originally configured for use in an electronics factory with epi-illumination for brightfield, polarising and darkfield. It was £250 on ebay. The great thing about the Universal is that it has a photo port, mag changer and bertrand lens as standard, and can do almost any lighting with the right accessories. They are old though, the last made in the early eighties.

All that was required for epi-DIC was objective/ prism combos that cost me ~£50 each on ebay.

For transmitted light, all I needed was an objective revolver (~£50), a condenser and some objectives. I already had some from my Zeiss standard, but again you can buy them on ebay for <£50. The high NA Planapos and Plan-Neofluars cost more, but you don't need those. Neofluar and Plan objectives are good and cheap.

For transmitted DIC, the original Zeiss system consists of single big prism slider and condenser. Mine cost 400€ together. Although you will read that it only works with certain objectives (and even certain serial numbers) I've found it works well with basically all my objectives at 16x and above. Only a few low power ones don't work at all.

The downside of the Zeiss finite system is delamination - the separation of cemented lens doublets and triplets. I find it affects almost all DC prisms, maybe nearly half of eyepieces, also common in telan lenses. Thankfully less than 10% of my objectives show delamination but it does seem to affect the more complex planapos more. Of the few that are affected most still give a sharp image but a couple are unusable. Delaminated eyepieces and DIC prisms can often be repaired with immersion oil but objectives cannot.

So it is possible to get a DIC system which very good results for $1000. However you have to be patient and watch ebay, forums etc for a long time, and pick up components here and there, take a risk on items in poor condition and do some restoration. Most BIN items on ebay are over-priced and never sell - there is a saying that 'those who sell do not know, and those who know do not sell' which often seems true. But there is a lot of kit out there, microscopy is simply not a very popular hobby and in a straight auction it is more common to get a bargain than a bidding war.

DIC can be a little finicky and I would suggest getting a thorough grounding in standard techniques like brightfield, darkfield, oblique and phase first. To get good results you need to be automatically setting kohler precisely and ensuring sample prep meets intended magnification.

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Re: How much will a DIC microscope cost me?

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by Macro_Cosmos »

Why immediately DIC?

You can do darkfield, polarised light, oblique and Rheinberg on the cheap.

You can combine a few of these and get award-winning images.

I am used to only the highest quality gear but am very willing to buy used.

While a higher price usually means better quality in the photography world, this just is not true with microscopy. There are plenty interesting subjects that do not need DIC and a lot where DIC simply does not work or produce bad results.

I do not mean to offend but did you talk to someone online who boasted about DIC being literally the best since sliced bread, claiming that any other technique is inferior?

Even DIC among the big 4 is different. Leica's DIC is very high contrast but generally lower resolution. Zeiss and Nikon are balanced, Olympus starts with high contrast but approaches the balance zone between the two.

If this does not make sense to you, then I suggest to start with a basic BH2 and mess around with cheaper techniques to see if microscopy is your thing.

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Roundel

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Re: How much will a DIC microscope cost me?

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by Roundel »

Scarodactyl wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 07, 2024 4:46 am

M43 is only a 22mm fov.

I need to sell my E800 with dic, I am not using it enough. They're huge so kind of a pain to ship though.

I will PM you as well.