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thevixen76 • 4 years ago

I, too, grew up in an abusive household, and was raped at the age of 18; the attack completely altered the course of my life. I never reported it, though, as I was convinced the police wouldn't believe me (the few people I did have the courage to tell simply scolded me for "putting myself in a situation like that"). This story was a tiny bit of salve for my soul. Kudos to Marie for her bravery and to the authors for sharing this vitally important account in such a compelling and thoughtful manner.

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Heydon Hensley  thevixen76 • 4 years ago

Even if you didn't report, you can still talk to local SA advocates. They'll believe you hands down, and they can get you in touch with useful resources like counseling, support groups, etc. Sometimes even yoga or writing. And almost all advocacy services are on a completely voluntary basis, so you can start/stop whenever you want. The services are also free!

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thevixen76  Heydon Hensley • 4 years ago

Thank you, Heydon Hensley for the information. I actually went through a number of different counseling options in the 21 years since that night. I eventually ended up in a battered women's shelter 3 years ago as the result of an abusive relationship. I received some wonderful counseling there, which helped me set healthy boundaries with my family of origin and allowed me to work through a lot of my trauma. I'm now a volunteer for that shelter, and in a fantastic place in my life.

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Heydon Hensley  thevixen76 • 4 years ago

Super pumped to hear that! You are undoubtedly a bona fide bad-ass. Thanks for sharing some of your impressive story. =)

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thevixen76  Heydon Hensley • 4 years ago

@Heydon Hensley *grin* I don't know about any of that...I just think I was too stubborn to let those people determine the outcome of my life. Thanks for the words of support!

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flootzavut  thevixen76 • 3 years ago

That is what makes you a badass :)

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catherine todd  thevixen76 • 2 years ago

Good for you! I wish I had been able to receive "positive" counseling. Would have made my life a whole lot easier, to this day. So good of you to work for the people in the battered women's shelter. I remember the bad old days when those safe havens did not exist.

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catherine todd  Heydon Hensley • 2 years ago • edited

Everyone seems to think that "therapists" are all so wonderful. Not true. When I was 40 years old, twenty years later, I told my therapist how I had been raped being tied up with a knife at my throat by the dishwasher where I worked. She wrote in her notes that I was "mentally ill due to my excessive risk-taking."

I later asked her "what did she consider excessive risk taking: moving to New York City, or taking the job?

She had no answer, of course.

Her name is Sonja K. Schoenwald, and even though I reported her in North Carolina, she moved to South Carolina where she works at one of the largest universities in Psychiatry, writing treatment papers about "at risk juveniles." I wonder how much victim-blaming she engages in now.

What other people and our society does to rape victims is what's "unbelievable." The actual attack can last just a matter of minutes. It's what happens afterwards that is the real killer.

Just like an earthquake, it's the aftershocks that kill you.

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Johnny Cage  catherine todd • 13 days ago

She's in Oregon now. I was at MUSC as a teen in '01 where she worked from '94 to '04 being evaluated for depression. I was sent on to one of those boot camps for troubled teens which has since closed down due to a number of lawsuits, etc. The "out of control teens" thing was big in the mid to late 90's and early 2000's if I remember correctly. It was a big theme in daytime TV, at least. I was surprised to be sent on to a very expensive, very punitive behavioral modification program for depression, though MUSC seemed to have the broscures on hand.

I'm not at all certain there's any link between this woman's tenure and my experience with a Draconian, distrustful, and ultimately damaging treatment approach (the place I went was hellish) that's since gone out of style. It was more likely a sign of the mentality toward adolescent treatment at the time, at least in my locale... but mentalities are driven by people like this doctor, and their failures in objectivity and professionalism harm so many people. I'm not a fan of doxxing in the least, but there don't seem to be many effective mechanisms of accountability in place for those with so much potential to damage lives. Everyone makes mistakes, but that doesn't mean all mistakes should be forgiven without contrition. Not retribution, just consequence...

I doubt you'll ever see this as your comment was from two years ago. But I'm sorry you were brushed aside when you needed help. I hope you've been able to restore some of what you lost in that experience.

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Jim Balter  Johnny Cage • 7 days ago

She won't see it because you posted it in the wrong place. You should repost it as a response to her comment.

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Susan Hilde  catherine todd • 9 days ago

Working in social service agencies for decades, I have dozens of horror stories. Young children, incest victims, beaten by their parents for "telling lies about one of God's messengers" or for "leading on" the rapist. Raped children kicked out of their homes and sent to be raised by relatives. Students forced to transfer schools because of ridicule and ostracism. The worst case (hard to pick out the worst) - the raped woman tried to keep it a secret, but someone pried and found out and "outed" the victim, resulting in the victim getting raped again by some guy who believes rape victims enjoy rough stuff ... ending with the victim relocating to get away from danger. It just goes on and on. In some countries rape victims keep it a secret and if they get "outed" they get killed, flogged or put in prison.

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9ball  catherine todd • 14 days ago

I feel so bad for you & all who go thru a trauma like that but you said it so well....everything that happens afterwards is worse. That's a very good analogy, "like an earthquake, it's the aftershocks that kill you."

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🇨🇦Hudson Bay  Heydon Hensley • 11 days ago

Vancouver rape relief is advocacy

Beyond normal

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🇨🇦Hudson Bay  thevixen76 • 11 days ago

Will be case of untruth..most cops are learning the DIFFERENCE between inconsistencies with recollection.can never take one case to fill all due dilligence..right of rebuttal by defending lawyer cant be nice and sweet..the truth will prevail.

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Sulk Hogan • 4 years ago

Thank you so much for writing this story. So few people understand how difficult it is to bring rape charges, even if the case is cut and dry forcible stranger rape. I recently went through a multi-year justice process to bring the man that home invaded and raped me to justice and I just really appreciate you covering the place where survivors and the justice system interact.

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Mpls_Me  Sulk Hogan • 4 years ago

This story also shines a light on why many women do NOT report rapes. The fear of going through what Marie went through is one of the biggest reasons they don't.

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Susan Hilde  Mpls_Me • 3 years ago

Even here in Minneapolis, the land of "Minnesota Nice", there are way too many people, both male and female, who are hostile and cold blooded, who have no compassion for victims of sexual violence. The Human Race has a long way to go before becoming more evolved.

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🇨🇦Hudson Bay  Susan Hilde • 11 days ago

Susan we never will,its a part of humanity for centuries

Only you can be vigorous in this ordeal..I've seen it up close

The unlawful groping

With yoga pants craze..males of interface lust

Who dont know to communicate

You be seeing a new class of predators

Coming soon.

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Jennifer R.  Mpls_Me • 2 years ago

Yes, exactly. It's like a second victimization.

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Philip J.  Guest • 4 years ago • edited

We don't have a justice system, we have a legal system and it is a terrible one

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FISA702COUPDETAT  Philip J. • 4 years ago

You think Constitutional rights, written laws, professional jurists, the right to legal representation, procedural process, and judgement by a jury of peers is terrible? Clunky? Yes. Terrible? no.

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Sparks13  FISA702COUPDETAT • 4 years ago

When the first layer of it is vested in turning accusations onto the victim, rather than investigating the crime, and further layers of the 'justice' system are in collusion to make the victim out as a criminal, there is no justice in the system for far, far too many people.

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BethesdaDog  Sparks13 • 3 years ago

Before you totally indict the law enforcement system, keep in mind that it was two ccivilians, the two women closest to the victim, who instigated the doubt and compromised the independent judgment of the investigators. It is obvious that the investigators were poorly trained, unprofessional, and too easily swayed given their poor training, lack of experience and poor judgment, but I wonder if the victim, Marie, would have become the target of the unfair accusation of deceit had Shannon and the other woman who were the closest to Marie had not instigated the doubt.

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Marco Kelly  BethesdaDog • 2 years ago

And keep in mind the law enforcement officers and departments admitted to poorly handling the investigation and implemented changes to their processes and procedures to remedy that.

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Concerned in Austin  Marco Kelly • 5 days ago

Not enough! They should have done a press conference and publicly acknowledged their error and apologized publicly to Marie. Instead of delivering an envelope with info on counseling and a refund, they should have offered more money to recompense her for all she'd lost due to their failure to do their jobs properly, including job, the program she was in, housing and reputation, as well as reparation for pain and suffering. If they were really sorry, she wouldn't have had to file suit. But they did none if those things and they deserve to shoulder the full blame, not the civilians who had doubts. It was the job of the police to do a thorough investigation but they were too lazy and failed to do so!

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ebolaoutkast  Concerned in Austin • 12 hours ago

Or maybe people should reconsider lying about lying about rape.

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mike andreen  BethesdaDog • 13 days ago

The Netflix series was well written, cast, produced and directed; when it got to the point of informing the audience that 40% of law enforcement officers are guilty of violently abusing their spouses and that their management teams turn a blind-eye to these actions, I was immediately drawn back into Malcolm Gladwell's latest book about Sandra Bland losing her life because of wrong-headed beliefs inculcated into new law enforcement officers who do not 'default-to-truth', and one particularly sociopathic officer who implemented the Kansas City Experiments that counsel officers to use any and all 'reasons' to pull motorists over and then to use subtrefuge to 'up-the-ante' in-order to 'find/discover' terrorists driving our streets. The 'Marie' main-plot of 'Unbelievable' was close-to unbearable and my wife and I resorted to halting the program several times to discuss the law and 'How' organized society can be turned-on the innocent and eventually grind then into dust. If the City of Lynwood really did write a refund check for $500 to Marie; once her rape was finally underscored by 8 photos taken by her rapists; regardless of how-many 'I am sorry, Maries' she heard, those officers should have been investigated and if there were other cases of rape that they didn't believe/fully-investigate, wrongly, they should have been shown the door. 'Unbelievable' should be mandatory viewing for high school students, law enforcement personnel and every person with a job funded by the tax payers to 'help' those who truly need it.

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ebolaoutkast  mike andreen • 12 hours ago

Nothing needed to be "investigated". These events were just the result of a series of circumstances and coincidences that were unfortunate, but not the fault of the officers. The series in particular had Marie making incomprehensibly stupid decisions and acting surprised when realizing that lying about a rape will make people act in unfavorable ways.

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Susan Hilde  BethesdaDog • 11 days ago • edited

The unethical policemen deserve most of the blame for this terrible tragedy. But three mature women - two of her foster mothers and a female housing manager, contacted the police to state "I am sure she is lying." Marie's female friends put the "confession" online with Marie's photo and contact information, ensuring that she got harassed by both strangers and acquaintances. Many rape victims have stated that some of the worst hostility (called "secondary wounding") comes from other women. I have met pre-teen girls who got raped and their mothers beat them for "leading on the abuser" or for "telling lies about such a good Christian." It would be so easy to blame it on men ... but no, women are every bit as cruel as men.

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catherine todd  BethesdaDog • 14 days ago • edited

Right. Those two women who contacted the police to say she "might be lying" condemned Marie to everything that happened, setting all those vicious wheels in motion. How Marie could ever "forgive" them as she did is beyond me. I would have sued them both for attempted false imprisonment. Those women are just evil, yet pretend to be her "friends." Makes me sick to my stomach. They should go to their graves in shame.

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username  catherine todd • 10 days ago

It’s not fair to blame the foster moms. It wasn’t their fault. Doubting someone isn’t evil and telling the police about those doubts is not a criminal act nor a lawsuit-worthy offense. She trusted the police to take the information into account and to do their job. It’s solely on the police department and the investigators that they weren’t skilled and knowledgeable enough to hear all the information and continue doing their job.

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Anne Tye  username • 8 days ago

Peggy Cunningham does NOT deserve to be given a break.

When This American Life did a podcast about this story after he was convicted, she was interviewed and STILL blamed the victim for not responding the way Peggy thought she should.

From the transcript:

"She needs to realize at some point, and I think she does now, that-- OK,

I hate to say this. But you know, I mean-- OK, now this is going to

sound really bad, like I'm blaming the victim. But some of the way that

she was acting was part of the reason why it had the outcome that it

did. And I am not the only person that didn't believe her."

This woman claims to be an advocate for children. In reality, with an attitude like that, she shouldn't be allowed to foster.

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Concerned in Austin  Anne Tye • 5 days ago • edited

That changes things for me. I had not heard that. She should never be allowed to work with children ever again. There's no excuse for what Peggy said during that interview except possibly that she's ignorant at best (ignorant as in lacking knowledge that there's no single way rape victims react after a rape). But the fact that she precedes it with acknowledging it's going to sound awful and like victim blaming tells me she KNOWS it's exactly that and is doing it anyway. I believe she is in denial to protect herself from facing the truth of what she did.

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Sophie  username • 9 days ago

I strongly disagree. The principal job of those women was to be there for Marie, to support her, and to fight her corner. She had literally no one else in her life to stand by her when all her friends turned against her and the police doubted her. They didn’t have to believe her and they didn’t have to lie by pretending to believe her. But it was not their place to actively sow doubt. They should have left the police to do their job. Whether Marie had been lying or not, what those women did was an absolute betrayal of her trust. They are the people I am angriest at in this whole thing because they were her designated support system. I never went through anything as bad as what Marie went through, but I had my trust betrayed by the ONLY person who was supposed to be on my side in a dispute during which I lost all my friends and had a nervous breakdown... that betrayal of my trust was possibly the part that hurt the most. The woman in question later apologised but the damage is done and I can’t get those years back.

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Jim Balter  Sophie • 7 days ago

"these women"

You shouldn't comment if you don't know even the basics of the case. Only Peggy went to the police and sowed doubt. (Well, Shannon contacted the police too, but only to alert them to the similarities between the Kirkland rape and Marie's.)

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Sophie  Jim Balter • 7 days ago

Jim

I’ve seen your comments all over this comment section and you are unbelievably ignorant and contrary. What purpose do you think you are serving? Because I guarantee you aren’t getting the result you want.

I know full well - I am FULLY AWARE - that only one of the women told the police about her doubts. My point was that both women ADMITTED TO HAVING DOUBTS, and one of them didn’t call the police but she did at some point VOICE HER DOUBTS TO THE OTHER WOMAN. This IN ITSELF, to my mind, is a betrayal of trust.

I have watched the Netflix series and read this article. Your pedantry and condescension not withstanding, that means I am in fact familiar enough with it from these two sources to make the assessment that I made and comment on a public comment board.

I say this with as much respect as you have offered myself and other commenters here: you are a pedantic, belligerent contrarian and I have no time for you so please do NOT reply.

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Sophie  Sophie • 7 days ago

(Edit: autocorrect changed “belligerent” to ignorant”).

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Jim Balter  Sophie • 6 days ago • edited

"Because I guarantee you aren’t getting the result you want."

And what result are you expecting from that stream of ad hominems?

"My point was that both women ADMITTED TO HAVING DOUBTS, and one of them didn’t call the police but she did at some point VOICE HER DOUBTS TO THE OTHER WOMAN. This IN ITSELF, to my mind, is a betrayal of trust."

My but you are defensive, but I doubt that you believe what you're saying, because it's absurd.

Now FOAD, hypocrite.

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Sophie  Jim Balter • 7 days ago

Re-read my comment. Can you point to where I said “both women called the police”? No? Then don’t instruct me on what I may or may not say if you don’t even know the basics of reading comprehension.

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Jim Balter  Sophie • 6 days ago

Your extreme dishonesty is noted. "They should have left the police to do their job.... what those women did was an absolute betrayal of her trust." -- Shannon did nothing to betray Marie's trust.

"Then don’t instruct me on what I may or may not say if you don’t even know the basics of reading comprehension."

Don't worry, I will have nothing more to say to you, ever.

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Jim Balter  username • 7 days ago • edited

Peggy isn't blameless (to say the least), but yes the police completely effed up. And It's moronic and intellectually dishonest to the extreme for Ms. Todd to blabber about suing for "false imprisonment".

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Jennifer Nathaniel  catherine todd • 14 days ago

I agree with you. When they apologized to me I would've told them to shove it and go f themselves. My youngest settled understands why she forgave them. She's wants to be loved to badly. (I was there when I was a kid/ young adult) I kept forgiving my mother. But years finally caught up and she never changed so I finally knowing (mostly) learned that I don't need her.

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Jim Balter  Jennifer Nathaniel • 7 days ago

"years finally caught up and she never changed"

So, your mother is nothing like these women but you insist on projecting your own experience onto them.

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Concerned in Austin  catherine todd • 5 days ago

They're not evil. They're human, subject to the same biases and errors in thinking that the rest of us are. Most people, in fact, think they know how a victim should act and that they can tell when someone is lying because they're not showing the proper emotions, etc. This is one of the reasons why police, prosecutors and juries don't believe victims, because they don't act like people expect victims to act. And it needs to change, because until it does, rape victims will still be treated like criminals because they don't show the right emotion or act the way people expect or think they'd act if it happened to them. Remember both those ladies had experienced rape themselves and were going by how THEY'D reacted when being suspicious of Marie's story. This is extremely common and will only change when people are educated enough to dispel the myths surrounding rape and sexual assault.

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Jim Balter  catherine todd • 7 days ago • edited

Only one of them contacted the police and said that Marie might be lying.

"I would have sued them both for attempted false imprisonment."

And you would have your suit thrown out of court and have to pay the court costs for the other side. "attempted false imprisonment"? Are you really that stupid, or that dishonest?

"Those women are just evil"

You're projecting a bit. What Peggy did was crummy, but there was nothing at all "evil" about Shannon.

More blame goes to the cops, who were stupid and incompetent.

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Concerned in Austin  BethesdaDog • 5 days ago

So civilians are more to blame than the professionals whose job it is to do a thorough investigation, and who not only failed to do so but then filed charges against the victim? Are you one of those police apologists who defend them at all costs?

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🇨🇦Hudson Bay  BethesdaDog • 11 days ago

Well said

Dont forget the woman

That little tiny piece

Who reported a fake story of verbatim Marie to cops

Lets all give the cops credit

They never dealt with the situation

Before..

How many cops

Per department

Murder is high priority

World wide web

Stories coming out.when you feel north America suck& terrible

View South Korea

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kbattgirl  🇨🇦Hudson Bay • 6 days ago

1. Your comment makes no sense.

2. Anyone who is sexually assaulted deserves justice

3. It was 2008, the cops had dealt with sexual many sexual assault cases, You say,”Lets all give the cops credit, they never dealt with the situation before...” Seriously?

4. “Murder is High priority” - yes, but they have homicide detectives to investigate those. Then they have other detectives to investigate sexual assault cases

You are ignorant and your comment does nothing to contribute to the conversation.

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catherine todd  Sparks13 • 14 days ago

That's the police for ya. Most of them make me sick.

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Silly You  FISA702COUPDETAT • 4 years ago

All those things are great if people are actually afforded their rights, but if you read this article you have to know that isn't the case. Marie's Constitutional rights were blatantly violated, her right to representation was denied, and procedural processes were ignored. Our 'justice' system looks good on paper, but if law enforcement and the judicial system don't follow the law in their investigations and prosecutions, then that paper is worthless.

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Philip J.  FISA702COUPDETAT • 4 years ago

Didn't say there isn't worse, however, when you observe the results of this system, it is terrible. Maybe the problem is the laws, or the people enforcing it? Either way, it's terrible.

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William Bergmann  Philip J. • 4 years ago

No, it's the reality of a system that exists at the nexus of human terribleness. There are no positive outcomes- merely ones that suck a little less than others.

That said, police coercion combined with our total lack of education regarding the functioning of the justice system combine to produce results that are even worse than they need to be. Of course, on the flip side, in a case like Marie's, any additional protection of her rights would also be extended to those being accused of rapes, etc, as well.

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Susan Hilde  William Bergmann • 3 years ago

There are various abuses of power. In the case of false reporting - and I do know of false reports - when someone innocent is arrested, defamed and suffers, there should be consequences for the false reporter. Most reports are true, but there are those that are false and in those cases the accuser should receive consequences. The same thing, of course, goes for false reports of other crimes. There are also false reports of burglary, theft, stalking, assault, etc. All crimes have their share of phony victims.

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William Bergmann  Susan Hilde • 3 years ago

I don't disagree- I just think that 'false reporting' needs to be fairly explicitly spelled out. There are too many people that never report a rape in the first case for fear of not being believed. I'd hate to add to that number because people were worried about being prosecuted if they weren't believed.

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Susan Hilde  William Bergmann • 3 years ago

Yes, false reporting should be clearly spelled out. I have read that in parts of the U.K. women are fearful to report being assaulted because of the high rate of women getting prosecuted for alleged false reporting. I know of only a few cases in USA where "false reporters" have been prosecuted. It does not appear to be rampant in USA.

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Concerned in Austin  William Bergmann • 5 days ago

5% of rape allegations are false according to the FBI. That means a whopping 95% are truthful! Yet people act like those numbers are reversed.

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Concerned in Austin  Susan Hilde • 5 days ago

According to FBI statistics, the percentage of false rape reports is 5 percent. I get so tired of injustices towards female victims being committed because people cite false reports as a major concern. If the shoe was reversed, and more men were raped than women, you can bet that false reports wouldn't be the number one concern. Getting justice for the victims would be.

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SGrace  Philip J. • 4 years ago

How tragic that I find comfort from living in a country where rape is technically illegal? The enforcement of that law, questionably ineffective? Yes. But thankfully illegal nonetheless.

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Henry Kelly  SGrace • 6 months ago

The illegality of rape, and the potential of severe penalties, contributes massively to the difficulty of obtaining convictions for rape.

It would be much more straightforward to prosecute for easily proved physical injury. Conviction would be simple, because physical injury is easily proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

No one presumes that a criminal accuser consented to be punched in the mouth, choked, cut, pistol-whipped. Physical brutality to the point of recordable injury is its own proof.

Upon conviction for one or more acts of brutality, rape could then be introduced at the sentencing hearing as an aggravating factor. Other victims could come forth to testify. My sister was able to add her testimony to the sentencing of a rapist of another woman, despite that my sister had not reported being raped by the convict. She had not reported the recent rape due to the severe abuse inflicted on her at trial by the defense attorney for the man who she had made a complaint against.

This would eliminate the "she says-he says" prosecutions that usually fail even if the state's attorney will take a chance on it.

The object is to convict and imprison rapists, not to label them rapists. The other crimes they commit, crimes easily proved, get them imprisoned.

As an aside, rapists who are not psychotic would have a strong incentive to rape gently to avoid creating physical evidence. Nothing can be done to irrational psychotics but detect them and lock them up unless drug therapy can suppress their urges.

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Concerned in Austin  Henry Kelly • 5 days ago

The problem with what you wrote is that the vast majority of rapes are committed by someone the victim knows, not violent stranger rapes at knife point. In Marie's case it was a violent stranger rape and they STILL didn't believe her! Imagine how hard it is for victims raped by someone they know when society is biased to believe women lie about rape as though it's more common than not.

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Null66  Philip J. • 2 years ago

Perverse incentives fill our prisons with people guilty or not.

Look at all the capital cases where dna excludes the prisoner.

Cops are grossly over worked, under paid, and must close cases. Too often they form ideas of what happened then make evidence fit the theory. Thats backward.

Then theres the competition theory of justice. DA’s can’t admit mistakes, nor seak the truth, just conviction.

Then theres the grossly understaffed public defendors.

Yeah, our system is meant to make people believe in it, not to seak the truth.

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Henry Kelly  Null66 • 6 months ago

You might notice that when innocent persons falsely convicted are exonerated by a prosecutor it almost always is by a different prosecutor from the one who obtained the false conviction, who is out of office.

Theppppppppppp

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Null66  Henry Kelly • 6 months ago

And yet thousands are railroaded taking pleas as they await hearings for years for trivial offenses...

Given lack of public defender staffing and massive court backlogs

So much for timely trial, eg bill of rights.

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Concerned in Austin  Null66 • 5 days ago

"Too often they form ideas of what happened then make evidence fit the theory"

And that needs to change and can be changed! Britain made it illegal for police to do this. They MUST follow all leads and go where the evidence takes them. The interrogation methods we use in the U.S. that lead to so many false convictions are also outlawed in Britain.

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Word Warrior  Guest • 4 years ago

The written ideals and the realities do NOT match because the process involves human beings with all their own biases and prejudices.

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EmilyBailey  FISA702COUPDETAT • 4 years ago

It's a game. The truth doesn't matter as much as winning. Attorneys lie on behalf of their clients and wealthier clients can afford better liars. If justice was the objective/goal, then truth would be sought. It's not so, yes, it's terrible.

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Concerned in Austin  EmilyBailey • 5 days ago

It's only as good as the people running the system. When they're corrupt, lazy, wear blinders and are subject to confirmation bias, then the best system in the world on paper becomes meaningless in reality.

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JohnnyMorales  FISA702COUPDETAT • 4 years ago • edited

A right to sub-par legal representation from an underfunded, understaffed, overworked public defenders office which IS THE NORM undercuts everything you said.

For anyone who has to depend on law enforcement to provide free legal representation, our system truly is beyond terrible. It makes a mockery of justice.

It is responsible for literally putting millions of basically innocent people in prison due to the widespread practice of incredibly overworked public defenders working out a plea deal even for innocent victims, because they simply do not have the time or resources to construct a credible defense able to defeat the case as brought up by the far better funded, fully staffed, tough on crime department of the prosecutor.

If you ever bother to wonder why such a big share of our prison population is the result of arrests for non-violent, no victim, pot smoking, possessing pot cases have resulted in prison time convictions for the charged, you'd realize this is the truth.

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Oleron  JohnnyMorales • 4 years ago

Agreed, JohnnyMorales. However, you're slightly off point in emphasizing the "non-violent, no victim" crimes. How much work does it take to ring up a string of charges and convictions involving possession of pot? Get real. If the police don't do their job in solving the complicated cases -- which means finding the more clever perpetrators -- neither prosecutors nor defense counsel can do theirs.

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@nsmartinworld  Oleron • 3 years ago

It takes quite a bit of work to prosecute the drug war, and it is quite expensive. Most of the 80,000 annual SWAT raids are for drug crimes.

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katgal1232  FISA702COUPDETAT • 4 years ago

No it is terrible. You really have not read much about who gets justice. You are dead WRONG! Even with this rapist cop going to jail, he is afforded clothes, a haircut and he is unshackled while his accusers, all black and some in jail, did not get that. Their cases got no convictions. The reason they finally listened to someone was because she had NO record. There is rarely a jury of ones peers. Juries are mostly white retirees. I am sure you are white!

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FISA702COUPDETAT  katgal1232 • 4 years ago

Can you please read my comment and stop spouting gibberish? Are you a sensible person? What is your alternative system? Tell us or prove that you are a cretin with passion but no wisdom.

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Lanora West  katgal1232 • 2 months ago

Are you sure you are talking about the same article? The accused was not a "cop."

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Jim Balter  Lanora West • 7 days ago

On of the suspects for a while was a cop ... katgal1232 seems to have confused him with the actual rapist.

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Kyle Cushing  katgal1232 • a year ago • edited

wait bruh help me out I am doing a homework assignment are you saying all these people who were raped were black I can't find it in the article

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Humanist  FISA702COUPDETAT • a year ago

Inapt. Unjust. Often wrong. Terrible.

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🇨🇦Hudson Bay  FISA702COUPDETAT • 11 days ago

Wanna see terrible just look across the water

Indian you can purchase rape video for two rupee

We may not be perfect

But we are better than most.when u think its terrible

Be a ladies in India or Egypt

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mollycruz  Philip J. • 2 years ago

Yeah, but they got him. I would like to see a section of it, a hotline that advertises: "Feel the urge to commit a crime? Call us and let us save YOU. "

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catherine todd  Philip J. • 14 days ago

Phillip J. try living in a country where the legal system does NOTHING to protect people, as I do in Guatemala. That's terrible. The USA is severely flawed, with many bad actors, but much better laws and implementation than anywhere else I have lived in Europe or Latin America.

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Martin Zitter  Philip J. • 4 years ago

It's the worse, except for all the others in the world.

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Jim Balter  Martin Zitter • 4 years ago • edited

That's a fairy tale believed in by only the most ignorant Americans. Churchill actually said that about democracy, not the American legal system. More fitting is this statement, misattributed to Churchill: "Americans Will Always Do the Right Thing — After Exhausting All the Alternatives."

P.S.

vvv Spy Spy is an appallingly stupid piece of garbage, moronically attacking a strawman.

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Marty Zitter  Jim Balter • 2 years ago

I can't find a comparative ranking of Western legal systems online. Please rank them in the order you see fit and publish them here..

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Jim Balter  Marty Zitter • 2 years ago

I never said anything about a comparative ranking of legal systems; "It's the worse, except for all the others in the world" was YOUR claim, a year ago, you pathetic git.

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Marty Zitter  Jim Balter • 2 years ago

What's a "git?" Is it anything like a cuck or a RINO or a snowflake? Is it a code word or a dog whistle announcing the Second Coming of Jesus Christ or the assumption of Saint Donald into the pantheon? Or is it something the deep state uses to fill the swamp and try to lock Hillary up? So many questions, so little intellect...

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Jim Balter  Marty Zitter • 2 years ago

Indeed you have so little intellect, and no scruples, as you completely fail to address the point.

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Humanist  Jim Balter • a year ago

If you have a bad case of scruples, a little zinc ointment might help....

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aimer  Marty Zitter • 2 years ago

Hey Marrrty- there's this k-k-k-kewl invention called "google" where ya can look up stuff, like words that are unfamiliar to your public schooled brain. But since ya seem to be a bit handicapped: a git is an unpleasant or contemptible person.

Yep, that's about r-r-r-right!

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Humanist  aimer • a year ago

"aimer" could be a good synonym for "git". You pathetic aimer. Yeah!

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Ahsoka Tano 90  Spy Spy • 3 years ago • edited

The US legal system is completely underfunded thanks to decades of tax cuts. Its not just rape victims who are undermined. If you're poor you have a choice, confess to a crime you didn't commit or sit in jail for months up to a year to prove your innocence with a court appointed attorney who can only spend a few minutes reviewing your case before you go in front of a judge. Where did you hear that the US legal system is very top in the world? I could ask you for a source, but we both know you don't have one. Not that other legal systems around the globe are handling rape cases any better or worse, but to make that kind of assertions is just ridiculous.

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Penny Brewster  Spy Spy • 3 years ago

You are really delusional, do they feed you Americans delusion and superiority for a school snack? Seriously, I'd like to know where you think a country where O.J Simpson was found innocent and anyone with money can buy their way out of it is the best.

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BobTrent  Penny Brewster • 2 years ago

The key witness in the chain of custody of the evidence, Mark Fuhrman, was proven to have lied under oath. This discredited all of his testimony.

O.J. Simpson could not be placed at the scene of the crime at the time of the crime. Result: acquittal.

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Humanist  BobTrent • a year ago

The case against O.J. was overwhelming. He was acquitted by jury nullification.

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Frank_Truth  Martin Zitter • 2 years ago

How many other legal systems are you familiar with? You really have no idea how bad the American legal system really is and how good the legal systems are in other Western democracies.

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Marty Zitter  Frank_Truth • 2 years ago

I can't find a comparative ranking of Western legal systems online. Please rank them in the order you see fit and publish them here.

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Marco Kelly  Marty Zitter • 2 years ago

I suppose the question is: If you can't find a comparative ranking of Western legal systems, how can you theorize that those of the rest of the world are worse than that of the US?

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Humanist  Marty Zitter • a year ago

Zitter, you lazy zitter. Do your own research.

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Cpt_Justice  Sulk Hogan • 4 years ago

Proud of you for not backing down or giving up!

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FISA702COUPDETAT  Sulk Hogan • 4 years ago

So few people understand how difficult it is to bring assault charges when a man is set upon by other men. See You tube.

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TiaLee13 • 4 years ago

OMG, thank you!

I delayed in reporting a rape and it seemed to me that the police doubted me strongly when I finally did. I was going through a horrible divorce at the time and many other stresses, like losing my home. It seems silly now not to have gone to the police immediately. I can't even remember why other than I was terrified and sad and depressed and I just didn't want to deal with any more.

I'll always remember the way that officer spoke to me and looked at me. Logically, I guess I may have doubted me, too, if I had been him. Still......

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tchristianmiller ProPublica  TiaLee13 • 4 years ago

Actually, the statistics show that *most* women wait before reporting a sexual assault - for all the reasons you mentioned.

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Arbite  tchristianmiller • 4 years ago

And delay is probably the worst thing for catching a perp, or even being believed. The forensics that back you up are time sensitive.

(If you're raped by a highschool athlete in a nowhere town definitely go to the town next door for the rapekit, a minor delay like that is faine.)

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nellskies  Arbite • 4 years ago

you talk like it's so easy to report a rape, where in most cases the fact is it's the last thing you want to talk about

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Bobbie Garnet Bees  tchristianmiller • 4 years ago

What's the statistic for children?

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NRA  Bobbie Garnet Bees • 4 years ago

Most of us don't tell, at least not until decades later. Either your abuser is a family member or a close family friend, so you know you'll be called a liar if you accuse that person, or the perpetrator has convinced you (and this is easy to do with children) that (1) you provoked what happened (2) you enjoyed what happened (3) if you tell anyone, I'll kill your whole family. And since we prefer to pretend children are not raped in epidemic numbers, we don't teacher children how to talk about sexual abuse when it happens to them. You know the word "rape" is terrifying, but you don't know why. It's pretty screwy.

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ApocalypsoFacto  NRA • 4 years ago

This is correct. I was molested by a babysitter who was the son of a family friend. I was six and did not really understand what had happened to me, for one thing. He also told me that if I told anyone what he had done, he would kill my little brother (who was four at the time). I did not tell anyone what had happened until I was 12, when I finally told my mother. Thankfully, she did believe me, but there was nothing we could do at that point - my abuser and his family had moved away. I still have regrets about waiting to tell and the fact that he could still be out there abusing children.

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Bobbie Garnet Bees  ApocalypsoFacto • 4 years ago

Yep, my abuse stemmed from a babysitter as well.

He was the lead altar boy for the base chaplain, Canadian Forces officer Captain Father Angus McRae.

The Canadian Forces knew what happened back in 1978 to 1980 and they buried it under the rug.

Captain McRae was using this babysitter to bring us young kids over to the base chapel. McRae was smart. What I remembered as a "sickly sweet grape juice" was actually Manischewitz Wine. The babysitter was also abusing us kids on his own.

And even though the Canadian Forces of today state that they are getting tough on sexual assault within the military, matters like mine they want to leave buried in the past.

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Bobbie Garnet Bees  NRA • 4 years ago

Yeah, I'm more than familiar with the fact that most don't tell.

I was just hoping for some numbers, as numbers I've seen have varied wildly.

I kept my mouth shut for 31 years. Or at least I though I kept my mouth shut. Turns out that I didn't need to. Turns out the military police knew what happened back in 1978 to 1980. Turns out my father knew. Turns out the military social workers knew. Turns out a lot of people knew. But they just wanted it to go away. Turns out even the base commander knew that his catholic priest, Captain Father Angus McRae, had taught my babysitter how to sexually abuse children.

In 2011 it turns out the Alberta Crown prosecutor decided that a 15 year old babysitter having anal intercourse with an 8 year old buy was nothing more than "childhood curiosity and experimentation"

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SGrace  NRA • 4 years ago • edited

Or, you don't know that it's not the normal status quo for everyone else, having grown up in an environment where it's normal for adults to molest/rape/physically abuse. I never told any adults predominantly for this reason... the shock I experienced upon learning that not everyone has been raped by men, women and their father as children still shocks me when I think about it today, as an adult.

I wish that I was alone in my experience, but instead I do everything possible to help those growing out of similar circumstances.

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catherine todd  NRA • 2 years ago • edited

Plus, remember what Freud said about children having "sexual fantasies of their fathers" and "behaving in a seductive manner." Counselors and police and everyone in between accepted this outlook even though Freud was paranoid and shown to have been addicted to cocaine, giving it to his patients, and having an affair with his wife's sister.

Not believing the victim stretches back YEARS. And when I was a child and abused as a child by my own father, there was NO ONE TO TELL.

When I did tell, I was determined to be "in need of treatment for my fantasies about my father."

The punishment I received and still receive at the hands of my mother and family for "telling" was worse than anything else my father did for all those years.

Complete and total rejection, blame, slander, attempting to destroy my reputation at every chance... I became the "evil perpetrator" in their minds accusing my "poor innocent war-hero father." And most of them still believe these lies told by my mother, who did anything she could to protect her husband and destroy me. And my sisters took up the cudgel and the sword after she died; having been sworn to "protect the family honor."

Even my youngest sister, Julia Graves, married to a pastor of a Methodist church in Virginia (or perhaps now in Washington DC), "does not believe me" and has continued to destroy my reputation at every chance. She was six years old when I left home, so all she has to go on is my mother's lies about me.

All her husband, Pastor David Graves, has to go on is that he has "heard the same consistent stories about me all these years, so he knows they must be true." This man is in charge of his "flock" at a Methodist church in Virginia or Washington DC, and my sister teaches bible school to the children. What are they doing to children, if they don't even ask me for my side? How can they protect any child who might be abused? If they are not willing to look at any of the real evidence I have from my formers teachers, medical file, and the nuns who I confided in, what would make them willing to investigate or report anything that is happening to children that are in their care?

50 years after I became an emancipated minor to get away from my abuse and get out of that house, the family is STILL slandering me in an attempt to create the fiction of a "happy life" with a "sainted mother and war hero father." It never ends.

* * * * *

No No No. There are so many to blame for what happens to children, both boys and girls, and later in life men and women.

Who will actually believe us without blaming the victim?

I was one of the few that fought back. Yet I was damaged as much as the others.

Where is there a safe place in the world?

I don't know.

see more

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Michelle  catherine todd • 2 years ago

I found your story absolutely heartbreaking. I hope you've found peace and comfort in your life, despite having your entire world throw you to the dogs.

I wanted to say I agree with you. There are so many to blame for what happens to children in cases like these. Even well-meaning people often do great harm to victims without even realizing it. I was sexually assaulted as a girl, and one of the things that damaged me most was hearing "caring" people talk about how precious a child's virtue is, and when that's taken, the child is robbed or ruined. I think a lot has changed since I was young, but this was a common theme back then and it messed me up for life. I grew up thinking the one thing I had of any value was forcibly taken from me, making me worthless. Of course that's nonsense. But it took me years to realize it, and much longer to shake that shame.

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Cpt_Justice  TiaLee13 • 4 years ago

SO proud of you to reporting it! And proud of you for sharing your doubts and fears; it can only help to strengthen others!

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KH13  TiaLee13 • 4 years ago

I had the same experience. Was raped two days after I moved out from my husband and just could not deal with the trauma. I didn't report to the police for 9 months, and while my case made it to the DA's office, charges were not pressed. It's been extremely difficult to get on with my life ever since.

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LMJ • 4 years ago

THIS is why I applied to journalism school last night. This is inspiring writing.

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tchristianmiller ProPublica  LMJ • 4 years ago

Good luck. Done right, it's a great job. At least, I think so.

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LMJ  tchristianmiller • 4 years ago

Thank you! Plot twist, I got in! ProPublica, here I come.

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Clarissa Saunders • 4 years ago

To the reporters: I know the work you do is hard, often not respected and poorly paid, but it is vital. You have brought a little light into an often dark world, and that's all any of us can do. Thank you.

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catherine todd  Clarissa Saunders • 2 years ago • edited

We can actually do a lot MORE than bring "a little light into an often dark world." As the two female police officers in the article show. Thank God for the few people who are willing to put in the time, energy and stand up for real justice, no matter what. People like this are so rare and so few that we call them "heroes and saints."

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Richard  catherine todd • 2 months ago

We can also donate cash to ProPublica. ;-)

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Alison Bass • 4 years ago

Great story! Beautifully written and unfortunately, I didn't find it surprising that there are still police officers out there who don't believe rape victims, especially ones from troubled backgrounds who don't act the way law enforcement think they should act.

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WiserWords2  Alison Bass • 4 years ago

It isn't just the police officers. In the article, which was very well written I must say, stated one of the foster mothers wondered why Marie wasn't acting as if she had been raped. When are people going to learn there is no certain way one behaves after being raped?

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Mary McDonald  WiserWords2 • 4 years ago

It wasn't just the police and the foster parents. Project Ladder brutalized her almost as much as the police did, apparently with no accountability.

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Susan Hilde  Mary McDonald • 3 years ago

Was awful what the Project Ladder leaders did. Refused to help this young impoverished woman get a lawyer, dragging her back to the police for more browbeating, forcing her again to say that she lied about being raped, then making her "confess" to all other clients that she "lied" - forcing her to lie to all of her neighbors in the housing complex - unbelievably cruel. She almost committed suicide after that humiliation - luckily she had two friends who did not desert her. If she did not have those two friends, I think she would have jumped off that overpass. If she had killed herself - and THEN evidence came out that she told the truth - people might have felt remorse and guilt for a few minutes. But only for a few minutes. Most bullies never feel remorse for the pain they inflict. I am thankful I am old and don't have much life left. I have no hope for the human race.

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Moms Hugs  Susan Hilde • 3 years ago

Susan ~ Thank you for pointing out the great harm done by how Project Ladder representatives treated Marie. I shuddered when reading that. I wondered if they were held accountable & if they made any effort to make it right for her. I also wondered if that so-called best friend in H.S. ever made things right after doing so much damage to Marie. These acts were SO wrong on so many levels, I simply cannot wrap my mind around these people (mostly women I presume).

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Susan Hilde  Moms Hugs • 3 years ago

Marie sued Project Ladder for defamation and got a private settlement. The directors of Project Ladder defended their behavior stating "We believe we acted appropriately on behalf of our client." Wow, that is cold. The director who made that statement is running for some sort of public office. Can you believe it??!! I hope she does not get elected. The "friend" who smeared Marie publicly, with the webpage with Marie's picture, contact info and the "confession story" - I really doubt if she ever felt guilty. After she was publicly slandered by that "friend" she had to relocate to escape all the harassment. With no money, no social support, I don't know how she managed to move to a different town. If she fled on her own, seeking out shelters and help from strangers, then she deserves an award for courage. I could never have survived that abuse. I bow down to her in utter admiration.

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Moms Hugs  Susan Hilde • 3 years ago

Move over to make room for me bowing down with you. Her kind of courage is referred to as "valor" when applied to a combat Marine! Also, thank you for the updated information. Community leaders typically circle the wagons in solidarity with their "tainted" PD, which explains why neither officer was fired or even disciplined. I agree with you about the clueless "friend" & will have to trust in karma.

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Susan Hilde  WiserWords2 • 3 years ago

Seems like most people know little about trauma. Trauma victims often appear calm, flat affect, monotone voice. They are in shock. I read about a woman who was doing laundry for her family in a laundry facility at 10:00 p.m. She was grabbed, dragged out to an alley and assaulted. In a state of shock, she returned to the facility covered in blood, dirt and bruises and finished doing the laundry. Calling for help did not occur to her in her traumatized state.

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Susan Hilde  WiserWords2 • 3 years ago

People don't seem to know that trauma victims often appear calm. They are not. They are in a state of shock and have shut down their feelings.

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leannael  Susan Hilde • 9 days ago

I'd also wager to say that Marie's foster mom sounded jealous of Marie and her outgoing personality. And then critiqued her response to the rape because it was different than the mom had responded. Makes me so angry.

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P Jarrett  WiserWords2 • 3 years ago

For me my abuse started when I was just 9 yrs old and continued on until I was 14, and finally was discovered by one of my highschool teachers. She was in her first year of teaching too. She noticed an extreme difference in me throughout the first 3 months of the school year. We had an assignment that we were to write down a 'typical' teenage problem. Most wrote about getting pregnant etc, but I decided to write the real thing down in hopes that I would find some help amongst my peers. The teacher took our papers (which were unsigned for anonymity) and then typed them all up to hand out as booklets to each student. Then we went over all the 'problems' as a class together, and discussed what each of us would do in that situation. Everyone in my class said they would kill themselves, which I obviously had considered many times by this point. Had my teachers before been observant like my teacher in Grade 9, then this most certainly would've been discovered much much sooner!! Once the school had been advised by my teacher the District School Board was advised, as well as the police. Then I was forced to go see the Children's Aid Society. They basically accused me of lying, and or said that I wanted it. To this day I have issues with trust of authority figures still due to how much of my situation was handled. I truly wish more teachers were aware of their students, and would notice severe changes in their behaviours, instead of just judging the student as being bad, not caring, lazy etc. To this day I am still in contact with the teacher who I credit for saving my life!! This happened back in the early '80's. She not only noticed the differences in me, but also took action to save me!! She also would spend time with me after school, taking me out for ice cream or a pop. She even invited me into her home when I felt unsafe, and scared. She is now head of guidance at a different highschool, and that is where she should be...to save and help others which I have no doubt she has done, and continues to do so!! I applaud all survivors that have the courage to come forward, like Maria and the others. I use to also live near the Lynnwood area in Washington, and I have to say that my experience with the Police Dept. is less then stellar (this was also back around the time that this happened to Maria). I sincerely hope that things have changed greatly for the better within that Police Dept, and in Snohomish County!!

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Ron Rodriguez  Alison Bass • 4 years ago

Lynnwood is a lower-income burg on the north end of Seattle, primarily white, and semi-rural except for the explosion of cheaply manufactured homes crammed together in a messy urban sprawl.

It's not at all surprising to me, after the way I've seen at least one other sexual predator case poorly handled from that district, that the Lynnwood police totally screwed this case up.

There's a Class 2 sex offender roaming free that only did 9 years in the state penitentiary for repeatedly raping a 10 year old boy. I had the misfortune of meeting this person in a higher education environment, where he felt the need to disclose his past to me because I had considered him for a leadership role in a program I directed at the time.

I later found him stalking his victim on Facebook, and I reported it the the Lynnwood police, where his case originated from, and also to Facebook.

It seems only Facebook had the decency to respond. The offender is still free.

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Dibaby1979  Ron Rodriguez • 3 years ago

Yes, I have serious doubts to Lynnwood's claims they implemented training after this case, especially considering Mason was undisciplined. Sounds like an incredible coverup. Sadly Marie was already victimized by the government's broken foster care system, the rapist and then they victimized her by calling her a liar, and the housing program victimized her as well. They work with people who grew up like Marie and instead of backing her up, they also accused her, believing an incompetent police force. Peggy victimized her too. It's clear to see how badly Marie was hurt by the callous treatment of every person that surrounded her, but those same people possibly created more victims by not searching for this vile man, and while it's doubtful a police department as incompetent as Lynnwood would have ever found O'Leary, it is possible their investigation would have led to him being caught sooner. All police departments should be required to put ALL claims of rape in a database, if it matches a profile then perhaps they would have taken her claims more seriously, not that they didn't have enough evidence of a sexual assualt, they had more than enough. I'm glad Marie has peace and has offered those who victimized her even further forgiveness, but I'm angry for every victim who was dismissed and never believed, leaving a criminal free and the victims reputation tainted. PS. I'd love to know how Marie's evil, high school friend reacted when she knew the truth and realized that she was nothing more than a vicious bitch?

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Susan Hilde  Dibaby1979 • 3 years ago

Marie is incredibly forgiving. I don't know if I could forgive people who hurt me that badly. Somehow, I am certain that nobody felt remorse for the way they bullied Marie. I hope I am wrong. But in my life experience, bullies almost never feel sorry for the pain they inflicted, or if they do, they are too proud to apologize and make amends.

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Bobismeisbob  Susan Hilde • a year ago

Yeah for a lot of people who react that way to victims not acting how they should they are honestly misinformed about how things work.

But her foster families and the supervisor at that program should know better. Either they or their training failed hard.

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Susan Hilde  Ron Rodriguez • 3 years ago

I am not surprised. Too many people got ice water flowing through their veins. Having spent several decades working in the social services, I know of too many children, both boys and girls, who suffered horrible abuse and the abusers were in jail for only a few years ... and in some cases, only a month or two.

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Silly You  Alison Bass • 4 years ago

Ditto the foster parents. I am stunned that two people allowed to care for children who have backgrounds similar to Marie's could ignore how her life might have informed her response to being raped! Not only that, but to jump to the conclusion that Marie was manufacturing drama for attention. If Peggy and Shannon hadn't intervened, it's possible the rapist would have been caught sooner, sparing other victims. Despicable. Peggy really should switch to Law & Order: SVU to complete her legal training.

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Bobismeisbob  Alison Bass • a year ago

Yeah, and the harping on the inconsistencies as if you could remember every detail. I rolled a car and 20min later I wasn't even sure if it rolled, I was on the phone with my boss and he asked if I could drive it back and I had to ask the cop. That was with no injuries or trauma or anything just adrenaline.

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Allison Troy • 4 years ago

Yes. This is so well done. As someone who watched a family member, the VICTIM, get totally trashed in court and had police officers laugh at her during a rape kit examination, this is all so true.

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lamarlowe • 4 years ago

Very well written and poignant. Thank you! This should be required reading for all law enforcement officers and potential jurors.

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NRA  lamarlowe • 4 years ago

Or anyone who likes to bring up false reporting statistics in a conversation about rape. People literally don't understand that being a false report statistic doesn't actually mean you were lying or weren't raped.

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Arbite  NRA • 4 years ago

And as the Innocence project has shown over and over, the opposite is true as well.

Some reports are not fake, but still nab the wrong guy.

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Susan Hilde  Arbite • 3 years ago

It is true. There should be strong evidence when someone is accused. I have read reports of those falsely imprisoned. There should be compelling evidence.

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Bobismeisbob  Arbite • a year ago

Most fall in the middle category where the police are convinced a crime happened but don't find or convict anyone.

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Silly You  lamarlowe • 4 years ago

And foster parents. And social work organizations.

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afifield • 4 years ago

Excellent story, well-written and meticulously reported. Best story about rape I have ever read.The justice system really let this woman down. Shameful. Hopefully this will help counter the common misperception that many rape victims lie.

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Lacy • 4 years ago

It's not often I run into a well written, engrossing article on the internet. The reporters deserve Pulitzer prizes. Wow!

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dcp123  Lacy • 3 years ago

Apparently, the folks who give out the prizes agree. Congratulations to the authors. The article is very moving. I still have tears on my face.

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Guest • 4 years ago

Kudos to the two detectives who worked tirelessly to get this monster.

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jo • 4 years ago

This article helps remind us that being in charge is not the same as being right, and we must avoid victim shaming and blaming until there is unequivocal evidence that falsehood exists, even if authority figures balk or complain.

As a student, I had a professor in a classroom space run at me, red faced and yelling, offering threats. It ended up the guy had a history of mental illness and flipping out at young women.

When I gave the police report, the officer calmly explained why I was the one at fault and suggested I not file a report at all. It was his classroom, the officer said, so it was the professor's right to scream and chase me.

The professor was eventually fired (and then after a long battle reinstated). However, to my understanding it took several other students being assaulted before that action was taken. I remember being angry and confronting the officer who took my statement, because the statement was taken inaccurately.

I don't think I would have been able to handle it if I'd been through a rape, and would have given up. As it was I was pushed around by the police regarding an assault witnessed by a room full of people! Without so many witnesses, I doubt my report would have ever been filed.

Thank you for this story, as bringing such accounts to light helps make the stories of those harmed more credible.

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georgelake • 4 years ago

This is a horrific tale. I was also extorted by the Lynnwood police and courts. They paper the town with bogus charges. When you show up for court, they have both public defenders and prosecutors acting like prosecutors. They interview you and say "yes, the charge does seems bogus, but do you want to test it with court or have it dismissed and pay $1000 for court costs". I was young and intimidated and paid the $1000. They are well trained to recognize weakness and play it every day. Before that, I had a notion that the justice system sought justice. Having that taken away was worse than being forced to pay the "institutional bribe". Dear Federal authorities, when you wish to pursue charges against Lynnwood, please contact me.

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M. K. Hajdin • 4 years ago

Back when I was a teenager, my roommate was drugged and gang-raped by some supposed friends of hers. She was bleeding so badly the mattress of her bed was soaked. We thought she was going to die. We drove her to the hospital where the doctors spent four hours trying to save her life. I held her hand as she cried. Then the cops showed up. They bullied her out of pressing charges and refused to even write a report. As they were leaving, they said they hoped the experience would teach the victim a lesson. I have despised the police ever since. As far as I'm concerned, they're state-sanctioned thugs with badges. Many male police officers abuse their wives and girlfriends and use their law enforcement resources to stalk their exes, too. No wonder they don't give a damn about rape.

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Philip J.  M. K. Hajdin • 4 years ago • edited

In this country we find a bunch lowlife thugs, give them badges, and call it "justice."

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BobTrent  Philip J. • 2 years ago

That kind of person is attracted to enFORCEment agencies.

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SGrace • 4 years ago • edited

Maybe it's only because I was raped by many people as a child, but I completely understand Marie's reaction after O'Leary's attack. I was 20 when I was almost raped by someone who broke into my apartment while I was sleeping. I woke to him on top of me and I kneed him in the groin, then bashed his nose as he grabbed to protect his genitals. I ran out the door at 1am without any shoes and didn't return home for a month. The most traumatizing part of that attack for me was coming to terms with the question of "How was I able to protect myself now, but not then?" - Which is, of course, an insane question to consider in retrospect. I was two completely different types of victims: a 20 year old female martial arts instructor versus a child younger than 10 years old, locked in a hotel room for a week at a time to be gang raped. The two scenarios can't be compared, and yet I felt so guilty for not being able to fight the men and women who raped me as a child... because I had been able to as an adult.

Regarding Marie's calm demeanor that was suspicious to her foster mothers and the detectives, in my personal experience, as well as in my experience working with survivors (of childhood trauma), there is a certain level of relief when those familiar neural pathways are caressed over again. Aside from common PTSD symptoms like dissociative disorder and compartmentalization of emotions and their related events, I can feel a sick sense of relief when an event similar to traumatic events from my formative years takes place. To speak in more pragmatic terms, I like being hit, but I know that isn't healthy for me - it's bad for my retinas, it's bad for my facial aesthetic, it's bad for my sense of self worth, and it's bad to reward those neural pathways.

The thing that has saved me is perceiving myself as a biological mainframe, and everyday I have to consciously work to reprogram myself.

I wish that there was more "positive outcome" research and data on survivors of childhood trauma so that the tired narrative that "your life is statistically proven to be fucked forever" wasn't so widely purported as fact. And I wish that feminists and MRAs alike would realize that rapists and rape victims are both men and women and that rape is not about attraction. As O'Leary stated, Marie "wasn't his type." Rape is predatory. In fact, rape is a misnomer. Rape should be called hunting. And being raped is like being killed over and over again without dying.

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Snoopy  SGrace • 4 years ago

This is such a beautiful, eloquent, and intelligent comment. And the last place I would expect to find it is in a Disqus comments section. Thank you for sharing your story.

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SchrodingersCake  SGrace • a year ago

Thank you, @SGrace. Our experiences were different, but my outcome was not dissimilar to yours. Why did I let him? Why did I let him again? And the analogy to reprogramming a mainframe is brilliant. I think I'll use that, see if it helps. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

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Sparks13 • 4 years ago

There is a lot of reasons 75% of rapes go unreported, but this travesty of justice is one of the big ones.

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Philip J.  Sparks13 • 4 years ago • edited

Our legal system is a joke. We imprison a higher percentage of our population than communist China, yet have trouble putting away rapists. I think a lot of the problem is the police are mostly dumb thugs. Thankfully, the two detectives in this case were actually component and motivated. Maybe we should be trying to get more women into law enforcement

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howlin_wolf • 4 years ago

The fact that the Lynnwood Police had a record of labeling rape reports as unfounded that was five times the national average is a red flag that there is something wrong with the agency. I think it hints at a strong element of misogyny in the ranks. The further fact that no one was ever disciplined for the browbeating of Marie that forced her to recant is also very disturbing.

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BobTrent  howlin_wolf • 2 years ago

These kinds of attitudes come down from supervisors. The cops and detectives generally will do whatever they are given orders and incentive to do.

Ultimately the police chiefs, commissioners and sheriffs determine policy.

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wanever • 4 years ago

Heartbreaking.

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Seer Clearly • 4 years ago

My experience working with people who have been sexually abused as minors is that for them to have the kind of grounding and peace that the rest of us take for granted, the people they interact with have to offer them the highest levels of trustworthiness. Because the abused are constantly suffering from PTSD and hypervigilance, they react to threatening situations in unpredictable and usually extreme ways, and this has to be taken into account by those evaluating their behavior. The Lynwood police violated these rules and experienced inconsistent and unusual behavior from Marie, but given her history of abuse, it was not unexpectable had they been properly trained. Ultimately this story indicts our legal system more than anything else: the pressure to 'convict' (or in this case get a confession) exceeds the pressure to pursue the truth, and the balkanized nature of police departments means that criminals can get away with their crimes because it's easier to blame the victim than to catch them. I know this is an unpopular viewpoint, but I'm certain that O'Leary was as much a victim of abuse as Marie was. His sentencing does indeed make others safer but it ignores the tragedy of his wasted life. Ultimately this double tragedy will only repeat itself unless we as a society admit how crushingly destructive the cycle of abuse is in our society, and how many - far, far more than any of us would imagine - are affected by it.

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bhnnad  Seer Clearly • 4 years ago

I get where you're coming from. But I don't agree. Not everyone who is abused becomes violent, and to claim that it is excused is insulting to anyone who was abused and does not hurt anyone. And there is no mention of his being abused anywhere, so I think you're simply assuming it because he raped people. According to data this is not usually the case (Scully, 1990). While I will ALWAYS advocate mercy, this man needs to be off the streets. He used his life to hurt others because it excited him.

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Tiriel  bhnnad • 4 years ago

At the same time, the fact that he was breaking into houses at eight years old would seem to indicate that there were things going on there that shouldn't have been.

Of course, it doesn't actually surprise me that he passed Army psychological screening. So did my dad, and he's been mentally ill for as long as I remember.

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Jim Balter  Tiriel • 4 years ago

" the fact that he was breaking into houses at eight years old would seem to indicate that there were things going on there that shouldn't have been."

The fact that he broke into houses and raped women as an adult indicates that "there were things going on there that shouldn't have been". That still provides no reason to think that he was abused. Try actually reading the article and seeing that he had a pathological reaction to seeing a a movie scene when he was five.

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Tiriel  Jim Balter • 4 years ago

I wasn't claiming that he WAS abused, but to me, his reaction to a single movie scene and the fact that he was ALSO breaking into houses at a VERY young age -for the thrill of it- indicates things were very wrong with him from a young age.

I really don't understand that angry rejection of the possibility that he might have been sexually abused at a young age, though. It in NO way excuses his actions. Explanations are NOT excuses. Understanding why someone engages in aberrant behavior is just as important as acknowledging that he engages in aberrant behavior.

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bhnnad  Tiriel • 4 years ago

So I know this comment is ages late, but I'll tell you why there is an angry rejection. First of all, the data shows this stereotype is globally not true. Second of all, this stereotype does a lot of harm to people who were abused, such as myself. Thirdly, it sounds as if it's making excuses for abusers (although I am aware that is not your intent). So it's an untrue, damaging stereotype. Why it was even proposed in a comment on an article that mentioned absolutely nothing about it tells you how this stereotype dominates the discourse on childhood sexual abuse. The whole discussion here stems from a comment calling this man's life a "tragedy" because his assumed victimhood wasn't properly addressed. But we don't have a single piece of evidence to support that claim. It was just a weird, knee-jerk empathy for a man who tormented others based on a pervasive, damaging stereotype with zero evidence.

You can find an example study online (Cycle of child sexual abuse: links between being a victim and becoming a perpetrator) which essentially says a minority of male victims might be more likely to be abusers, but this does not apply to female victims. There is a correlation, but not so much that you can just assume any rapist was a victim.

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Jim Balter  Tiriel • 4 years ago

"I wasn't claiming that he WAS abused"

Then you're confused about what the discussion was about.

"I really don't understand that angry rejection of the possibility that he might have been sexually abused at a young age, though."

There's no such thing ... why tell such a blatant lie? All I said was that a) there is no basis for *certainty* that he was abused and b) that the fact that he broke into houses and raped as an adult provides no reason to think that he was abused. He may very well have been abused; we don't know. And aside from my reaction just now to the stupid lying about what I wrote, nothing I said was angry.

"It in NO way excuses his actions. Explanations are NOT excuses. Understanding why someone engages in aberrant behavior is just as important as acknowledging that he engages in aberrant behavior."

Yes, yes, but again there's no reason to think that abuse *is* the explanation ... it's just baseless speculation. We have a partial explanation, which is his reaction to the Jabba the Hut scene that he saw when he was five, which contributed to pathological fantasies about controlling women. We don't know what else fed into that ... it could have been abuse, but there's no mention of it in the article.

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Susan Hilde  Jim Balter • 3 years ago

Something went wrong, whether O'Leary was abused or if he was born with a mental disorder. At age five, at seeing a movie, he began fantasizing about hurting women. At age eight, he was breaking into houses, it gave him a rush. Didn't anybody in his family have a clue that something was not right with this child??? As an adult he spent several hours a day for weeks or even months looking for victims, following and stalking them, gathering information about them, breaking into their homes when they were at work so he could further plan his crimes. All the time he spent surveilling and gathering information about his victims - it must have amounted to a full time job. I wonder what kind of mental disorder creates a criminal who spends so much time and planning to hurt people?

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DingDong  Susan Hilde • 2 years ago

Being a sociopath does that.

Antisocial personality disorder is the technical term I believe.

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s0nicfreak  bhnnad • 4 years ago

I don't think Seer is saying this man SHOULDN'T be off the streets. A mentally healthy person is not excited by hurting others. So if this man is doing this because it excites him - there must be a REASON it excites him. This reason may be some mental illness he was born with - or it may be a result of abuse. That is not to say that all mentally unhealthy people like to hurt others nor that all abuse victims will abuse. The cycle of abuse requires both victims and perpetrators to continue. But acknowledging that the cycle of abuse exists means that we can get treatment for EVERYONE involved and end the cycle before another perpetrator is created. It's too late for this man - but we can save others.

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bhnnad  s0nicfreak • 4 years ago

What I am saying is there is conflicting data on that theory. It seems to largely hold true for *domestic* abuse but not for serial rapists, for example. In fact, this stereotype is used against victims of childhood abuse. Many male victims are erroneously labeled as rapists or potential rapists by their communities when they are discovered to be victims because everyone assumes they will "continue the cycle" of abuse. Furthermore, the "cycle of abuse" actually refers to escalating patterns in an abusive relationship (i.e. violence, apology, mounting tensions), NOT the idea that most abusers are victims themselves.

I also don't know if I'd agree that being excited by violence is a mental illness. I think most people are excited by a certain amount of violence (light slapping, for example). This man likes this type of power play and that's actually not that shocking. He also clearly knew it was wrong and did it anyway.

Whether or not there is a "cycle of abuse" in the way you mean it should not change the fact that all victims should get help and support. I just don't know if I find it to be a tragedy that this man is in jail. If he were raped in jail, yes I would think that was a tragedy. Because that is not a just, civilized punishment. He needs to be kept from harming others, but he should not be subjected to cruelty just because he himself has acted in a cruel manner.

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s0nicfreak  bhnnad • 4 years ago

"Many male victims are erroneously labeled as rapists or potential rapists by their communities when they are discovered to be victims because everyone assumes they will "continue the cycle" of abuse."

And for fear of this label, many male victims (or their parents) hide the fact that they were abused, and don't get help. The problem with this is NOT the acknowlegement that abuse may lead to abuse - it's that people don't know the cycle can be broken.

"I think most people are excited by a certain amount of violence (light slapping, for example)."

Violence, by definition, is intended to hurt, damage or kill someone. By "light slapping" I assume you mean playful slapping, where both parties are okay with it and no one is hurt, damaged nor killed right? So that wouldn't be violence. Fantasy violence also isn't violence.

"Whether or not there is a "cycle of abuse" in the way you mean it should not change the fact that all victims should get help and support."

Totally agree, and I don't think this man being in jail is a tragedy either. I think it's a tragedy that he couldn't get help BEFORE he did something that causes him to need to be in jail, whatever the cause of him doing that may be.

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Null66  s0nicfreak • 2 years ago

This child abuse survivor thanks you.

I’m careful who i tell, only those who know i would never hurt someone unless defending self or others.

This old idea is rampant and movies/tv/media reinforces it.

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Susan Hilde  Null66 • a year ago

It is kind of sad, but people from violent families - really bad physical and sexual abuse - they do have to be careful about who they tell. If the wrong people find out, the abuse survivor can suffer. Working in the social services, I have spoken to survivors of child abuse who learned they had to sometimes tell outright lies - for example, they worked with people who kept asking questions about their backgrounds and they actually made up a story about a functional family. Some people, if they find out, will spread nasty gossip and assumed the survivor is "damaged goods" or "mentally ill".

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bhnnad  s0nicfreak • 4 years ago

One thing I will say, as a BDSM enthusiast, is that the idea that being sexually excited by a certain amount of violence is abhorrent and abnormal is simply untrue in my experience. In BDSM it's definitely a CONSENSUAL violence with no lasting damage done, but I would posit that in some ways the leap between the two isn't that shocking, and there are a lot more sadists out there than you'd think. Should this guy ever be considered a good person or a practitioner of BDSM? Absolutely not. But to me, the fact that there are many people out there turned on by violence but not restrained by the morality of BDSM (safe, sane, and consensual) is not at all shocking and doesn't to me suggest more of a pathology than being a bit of a sociopath/lacking empathy. And I think there are a lot of sociopaths out there. None of this suggests to me that he was a victim of abuse. I'm not saying he definitely wasn't, but to suggest he was simply because he abused others makes no sense to me.

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s0nicfreak  bhnnad • 4 years ago

"Violence, by definition, is intended to hurt, damage or kill someone." The intent of BDSM is sexual pleasure. That's not real violence.

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bhnnad  s0nicfreak • 3 years ago

I guess we just disagree on what violence is. The violence used in some people's BDSM practices does hurt and sometimes "damage" people. People leave bruises and sometimes draw blood. Yes, it's consensual violence, but that doesn't mean it's not violence. If it didn't hurt or damage, it wouldn't be sadism. The "S" in BDSM stands for sadism which means:

"the tendency to derive pleasure, esp. sexual gratification, from inflicting pain, suffering, or humiliation on others.

• (in general use) deliberate cruelty."

Inflicting pain is hurting someone. And I am not trying to condemn BDSM. Far from it. But I find it disingenuous to claim that anyone who reacts positively to violence is vastly off the scale from everyone else. It makes this guy seem like a unicorn. The fact is, some people like violence and this guy lacked the empathy to keep it safe, sane, and consensual as one would in BDSM and instead liked taking it from unwilling participants because it made him feel powerful. But it's not liking violence that makes him bizarre, it's his lack of empathy.

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s0nicfreak  bhnnad • 3 years ago

By your logic, being born would be an act of violence.

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bhnnad  s0nicfreak • 3 years ago

Is a natural process an act of violence? No one inflicted that violence intentionally. BDSM is intentional infliction of pain for the purposes of enjoying the pain/inflicting the pain. Being born is a natural process that is not inflicted by anyone. Pain in and of itself isn't violence, but inflicting it intentionally with the intended result being pain is violence. Now, giving a tattoo wouldn't fit this definition, because yes someone is inflicting pain on someone else but the PURPOSE is to give a tattoo, not to inflict pain. BDSM is inflicting pain for the purpose of inflicting pain. Accidentally hurting someone or hurting someone as a byproduct of fulfilling another purpose isn't violence. If your purpose is to inflict pain or injure or kill someone, that is violence.

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s0nicfreak  bhnnad • 3 years ago

Birth is intentional (just not by the person being born) and painful.

As I said, the purpose of BDSM is sexual pleasure. I'd say you're hurting someone as a byproduct of your fetish and therefore it isn't violence. If your primary purpose is inflicting pain, rather than mutual sexual pleasure resulting from (receiving and/or inflicting) pain, I'd say you need therapy. I don't know why you're so desperate to label yourself as being excited by real violence, but you're free to do so.

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BobTrent  s0nicfreak • 2 years ago

Birth is not intentional at all. It is an autonomic process that the mother has no voluntary control over.

She may be able to influence the progress to a small degree, either by pushing, standing up, squatting, but her voluntary nervous system does not control birth.

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s0nicfreak  BobTrent • 2 years ago

If a woman does not want to give birth, she can end the pregnancy or schedule a c-section.

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catherine todd  s0nicfreak • 2 years ago • edited

Unfortunately, some people here seem to think that abusers CAN "be helped." Not always true, and it's no tragedy if they are incarcerated or if they get a "dose of their own medicine." What makes people a certain way at age 5? Who know and who cares? This is where I agree that LOCK THEM UP is the solution since the death penalty is off the table in more situations than not.

Who cares about the VICTIMS and SURVIVORS? Not many. And the mental health profession has made victims into potential abusers, and they should be locked up for that.

Sonja K. Schoenwald and Philip Costanzo from Duke University in Durham NC (Schoenwald is now in SC) are perpetrators of that mindset, so how can anyone ever recover when "mental heath experts" still promote that victims are "mentally ill" and need to be institutionalized, and the poor perpetrators are in need help that "only THEY can provide."

Sound familiar?

Our current Mental Health profession can do so much more harm than good. Just ask the victims of Schoenwald and Costanzo. Both are still practicing and teaching when they are the worst people around, lying under oath and then claiming that they are "immune under the law" They found out that just isn't true anymore, even though they certainly wish it was.

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SGrace  bhnnad • 4 years ago • edited

Female perpetrators should not be disregarded in the "cycle of violence" theory data. I know this is anecdotal, but two of the females who raped me as a child were raped by their uncle. It makes simplistic sense that violence would beget violence, and that regardless of the gender on either side of the crime, trauma will transpire in a range of ugly internal and external ways...

Rapists are male and female. Females and males are raped. There needs to be a more balanced inquiry into the outcomes and origins of all sides, because to only say that men are perpetrators and women are victims is a tragically stupid perspective, and ultimately an impotent circle jerk that benefits no one, particularly not victims.

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Susan Hilde  SGrace • 3 years ago

It is true that female perpetrators exist. I have worked in the social services for decades. One of the most cruel cases - a woman arranged for a 40 year old man to rape her 12 year old daughter. The woman held her daughter to the floor to make it easier for the man to rape her little girl. The girl, badly injured and bleeding, managed to run for help. The woman could not figure out why her daughter cut off all contact with her. The social worker asked the woman "Why did you do this?" The woman answered "The same thing was done to me when I was 12 years old ... and I turned out JUST FINE." I have heard and read this line so many times "I was raised like this and I turned out JUST FINE."

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SGrace  Susan Hilde • 3 years ago • edited

Thank you Susan for the work that you do.

I would not have turned out "just fine" without the generosity of good social workers and $250,000 of therapy.

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Susan Hilde  SGrace • 3 years ago • edited

In some countries, both men and women murder girls and women who are victims of male violence. They have a big party after the woman is killed to "celebrate the cleansing of the family honor". The human race still has a long way to go ... we have not evolved very far.

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bhnnad  SGrace • 4 years ago

I hear where you are coming from, but the data literally says this effect does not seem to be statistically significant in female victims (Cycle of child sexual abuse: links between being a victim and becoming a perpetrator). That's not to say females don't abuse or that it's impossible that female abusers were also abused. It's just not statistically likely that the abuse caused them to become abusers.

I also specifically mentioned male victims (and not female victims) in my comment and didn't specify a specific gender as their aggressor, so I'm not sure why this comment was directed at me.

But just to be very clear, I am not claiming women can't be abusers or that men can't be victims. I am also not claiming that your experience isn't true or valid. From a victim to another victim, I am so sorry that anyone hurt you and I wish you all the best from the bottom of my heart.

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SGrace  bhnnad • 4 years ago • edited

I'm sorry if my comment came across as an attack or debate - it was intended more as commentary on the skewed stigma that you mentioned about male victims who are "erroneously labeled as rapists or potential rapists by their communities." I wasn't trying to debate you on any one of your points, but rather express frustration over the many assumptions that people and society make about victims, their demographics, gender, and how they "should react," as well as a devastating lack of data for positive outcomes and recovery. It certainly can't help a victim heal when the commonly held belief that they will become a perpetrator hangs overhead.

On another note, I'm dubious about how to judge the continued cycle data because wouldn't that rely on a victim-abuser self-reporting oneself as an abuser and/or the fraction of estimated sexual abuse cases which are reported/prosecuted? I don't mean to come off as a jerk asking this. I'm very much a proponent of this long held presumption being challenged, but isn't any data pool about rape victims and perpetrators innately compromised by the estimated number that go unreported?

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bhnnad  SGrace • 4 years ago

Dunno if I'm allowed to post links, but this is the study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

You can see their methods if you'd like. There have been many studies if you google it.

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bhnnad  SGrace • 4 years ago

I replied to a link but I'm not positive I'm allowed to post links so it may get deleted. In any case, you can google "Cycle of child sexual abuse: links between being a victim and becoming a perpetrator" and find the study. You can look into their methods if you like. There are also many other studies you can look into.

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Jim Balter  s0nicfreak • 4 years ago • edited

" A mentally healthy person is not excited by hurting others."

That's not the issue ... it's whether he was abused, for which there is no evidence.

"But acknowledging that the cycle of abuse exists"

Get it through your head ... there is no evidence that O'Leary was abused. The one who was abused here was Marie, but there's no evidence that she abused anyone in turn. Which is not to say that there isn't a cycle of abuse -- there certainly is -- but a) abuse does not *always* lead to abuse in turn (often it is turned inward, especially with women) and b) not *every* abuser and rapist was themselves abused.

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s0nicfreak  Jim Balter • 4 years ago

I did not say either of those two things.

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Jim Balter  s0nicfreak • 4 years ago

You're a very dishonest person.

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s0nicfreak  Jim Balter • 4 years ago

Not true. To clarify, I meant I did not say the two things in your last paragraph; not the quotes, if that is what you were thinking.

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Jim Balter  s0nicfreak • 7 days ago

"To clarify, I meant I did not say the two things in your last paragraph"

I didn't say that you did, dimwit. Your comment "I did not say either of those things" was stupid, an apparent consequence of extremely poor reading comprehension.

"not the quotes, if that is what you were thinking"

Gee, and why would I think that ... perhaps your appallingly poor ability to communicate, and your failure to actually address anything I wrote.

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s0nicfreak  Jim Balter • 2 days ago

I addressed your comment of "You're a very dishonest person." with "Not true." The only reason you would think I was dishonest was if you misunderstood, because that was the only thing you had to judge me by.

Gee, and why would I think that

Poor reading comprehension.

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BobTrent  s0nicfreak • 2 years ago

Mental illness more often results in apathy.

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Susan Hilde  bhnnad • 3 years ago

I have read studies that state two thirds of abused children do not become abusive adults. Most of them have a supportive person in their lives - relatives, teacher, pastor, Scout leader, neighbor - someone to help them grow a conscience, to help them not to repeat the pattern. In a VERY small percentage of cases, a person appears to be born with a mental disorder predisposing them to become abusers. But in most cases, a violent person learns violence and does not have a helpful person to guide them.

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Susan Hilde  bhnnad • a year ago

According to Miller and Armstrong, O'Leary did not come from an abusive family. O'Leary even stated that he came from a kind and loving family. Not all violent people come from terrible backgrounds. The man who beat my niece with a metal baseball bat, almost killing her, leaving her brain damaged, did not have abusive parents (he did have parents who spoiled him). He was violent from day one. The pediatrician who treated him said "This was the most out of control, angry three year old I have ever treated." The criminal was kicked out of kindergarten, elementary schools and high schools because of his violence. At age ten he threatened other kids with a razor knife for their money. At 15 he beat another boy with a lead pipe. At 17 he tried to run over another 17 year old. At 18 he battered my niece. He spent 19 years in prison, is a free man and is not under any supervision, only 37 years old. People who were victimized by him are once again watching their backs and taking elaborate security measures.

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Jim Balter  Seer Clearly • 4 years ago

"I know this is an unpopular viewpoint, but I'm certain that O'Leary was as much a victim of abuse as Marie was. "

It's unpopular because it is totally irrational -- while you might suspect such a thing, there is no basis for certainty.

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Crip Dyke  Seer Clearly • 4 years ago

the pressure to 'convict' (or in this case get a confession) exceeds the pressure to pursue the truth, and the balkanized nature of police departments means that criminals can get away with their crimes because it's easier to blame the victim than to catch them

Canada is far from perfect - you should read about the history of RCMP inattention to the cases - and friends and family! - of missing and murdered aboriginal women. I haven't looked closely enough to know if our police are any better than US police.

But there is a real difference that I've seen in the Crown Prosecution Service compared to the DA system in the States: all things that in the US might be called "felonies" are prosecuted by an unelected, federal prosecution service. The lessons of our failures are communicated nationwide - they don't have to be separately learned by every single small town or county. The system of appointment rather than election means that you get your job by proving you are good at your job to someone who knows how the job is done, not by promising free puppies to voters who have no idea what a decent prosecution entails.

Finally, while there is pressure not to waste your office's time and resources, the CPS is very clear that your job isn't to secure convictions, but by the work that you do to make the community where you live and serve a more just community. I'm sure that there are better and worse supervisors with better or worse takes on justice, but it helps a great deal that the CPS's policy is to pursue justice, not conviction.

While I'm certain there are DAs like that in the states, it helps a ton to have that priority mandated nationwide.

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M. K. Hajdin  Seer Clearly • 4 years ago

You're right, that is an unpopular view. Violent men aren't violent because of abuse. They're violent because they want to be and because most of the time, they get away with it. Coddling them and feeling sorry for them and making excuses for them will not solve male violence. And it's massively insulting to victims.

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Jonathan Colvin  M. K. Hajdin • 4 years ago • edited

"Violent men aren't violent because of abuse". Currently Canada is about to start an enquiry into missing and murdered aboriginal women. The majority of murdered aboriginal women are murdered by aboriginal men, and the extraordinarily high rate of violence and abuse in the aboriginal community is explained as a result of the abuse suffered by aboriginals in residential schools. Are you claiming that this isn't the case, the correlation between residential school abuse and violence in these communities is just a coincidence, and the reason for the high rate of abuse is actually just because these men "want to be violent"?

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s0nicfreak  M. K. Hajdin • 4 years ago

"Violent men aren't violent because of abuse." Are you saying women that react extremely are the results of their abuse, while men aren't? (Not accusing you, just trying to clarify.)

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Nor  Seer Clearly • 4 years ago

Turns out being a rapist runs in families w/ about a 30% heritability rate - autism for example is a 40% heritability. You can have a genetic profile that makes you far more likely to be a rapist. You can look at families w/ a history of abuse and blame the abuse for the kid becoming a rapist, but you can't discount the genetic propensity for sexually violent behavior, often accompanied by physically violent behavior in general. That doesn't mean this behavior isn't a conscious choice that you made however. I think you'd also find that gender plays a massive role.

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mlaw437  Nor • 3 years ago

Where are you getting that statistic from? The fact that children and parents or siblings in the same family are more likely to become rapists does not indicate that being a rapist is heritable or that it is due to genetics; it is far more likely that it indicates that the family in which you grew up influenced the way you view women, sex and violence. Physical and verbal abuse also "run in families" but it has been fairly clearly established that that is because we mimic the attitudes and behaviors of our parents and/or families of origin, not because there is a wife-beating gene.

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SGrace  Nor • 4 years ago • edited

I don't believe that gender is as great an impetus for rapists as most people believe. Rapists are opportunistic - meaning that if you are a 200 lb man, with the desire to rape someone who weighs 100 lbs, the physics are in your favor. In other words, the advantages that a female rapist may use may be different than physical force, and many victims may be confused or embarrassed by the act of rape by a female perpetrator because most people think of rape as a physically forceful act - and women do not typically fit the stereotype for a "physically forceful gender."

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Ron Rodriguez  Seer Clearly • 4 years ago

Thank you for posting this. So many of these victims have come through the foster care system, and wearing that foster child "badge" translates to many outsiders; "damaged goods". I've seen the way some of these teen girls were treated after revealing their sex abuse, then just "carrying on" in a "normal" fashion as if they just mentioned that the weather was nice. The events of this article are far too common, more so than a lot of people might think. For males, it's even more difficult to be forthcoming with this type of sexual abuse experience, which results in deeper feelings of anger and resentment due to their perceived notion that they have to put on a "strong" front, and can't be seen as "weak". A telling symptom of the skewed values placed on genders.

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Susan Hilde  Seer Clearly • 3 years ago

It is possible that the rapist came from a horrible background. That should be considered. But about two thirds of abused children do not become abusive adults. I have trouble respecting child abusers and predators who state "I couldn't help myself. I was abused as a child." I look forward to the day when parenting classes are made available to all high school students, when mental health services are available to all who need them. Our entire society fails to realize priorities.

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WiserWords2  Seer Clearly • 4 years ago • edited

I don't think you're viewpoint is unpopular among those who understand a little about human psychology. It's possible he was a victim of abuse.

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Jim Balter  WiserWords2 • 7 days ago

She didn't say "possible", you git, she said "certain".

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Susan Hilde  Seer Clearly • 5 days ago

According to the book written by Ken Armstrong and T.C. Miller, O'Leary came from a family that appeared to be functional. Of course, nobody knows what goes on behind closed doors. But in the sentencing hearing, O'Leary's mother expressed feelings of guilt. She stated that she has suffered rape and she talked to her daughter about it, but not her sons. She seemed to believe that if she had talked to her sons about consent, about respecting people, O'Leary might not have become a rapist.

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Carson • 4 years ago • edited

Great journalism! Not enough kudos for the excellent job of Detective Galbraith, Sgt. Hendershot, and their associated investigative colleagues. Other than perhaps maybe personal embarrassment and reassignment would like the article to have stated whether Sgt. Mason had actually made a public apology and/or received any kind of disciplinary action. Also, even though former Detective Rittgarn previously left the department I wonder why he declined to be interviewed for this story?

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FactsSaveLives  Carson • 4 years ago

From the article:

"Despite the reviews’ tough language, no one in the Lynnwood Police Department was disciplined."

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Susan Hilde  Carson • a year ago

T. Christian Miller and Ken Armstrong asked Rittgarn for an interview. In a very nasty, hostile manner he replied that he would not do an interview unless he was paid. He also made angry comments about "biased reporting" and "victims who lie". He now owns a private detective agency in California, specializing in "marital infidelity". Most of his clients are men. So, he follows and surveils women to get evidence of the women cheating on their husbands. Follows women and learns their habits and routines ... same thing Marc Patrick O'Leary did .... except that at least Rittgarn does not assault the women. We can be grateful for that (sarcasm intended). At least, to the best of our knowledge he does not assault women. But who knows .... I have talked to 20 women who got raped - violence or a clear threat of violence. Only five reported. They were "perfect victims" - in their houses at night sleeping, or waiting for public transit at 5:00 a.m. en route to their jobs. Most do not report - they think it does no good - why spend five hours at the hospital, several hours with police, risk having your name given out and getting ridiculed - why bother?

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Carrie • 4 years ago

If I were Marie, I would have nothing more to do with Shannon or Peggy. Also, I think there should be more women detectives on rape cases. I am not certain that men take rape seriously enough.

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wgone  Carrie • 4 years ago

Weren't Shannon and Peggy WOMEN?

The point is that you have to be neutral - "Listen and verify". These were not good police officers because they were women. They acted intelligently.

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Carrie  wgone • 4 years ago

Shannon and Peggy should have known her best. Why didn't Peggy or Shannon talk to Marie first about their concerns? The only reason Marie got justice is the photograph. They couldn't refute it.

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Jim Balter  wgone • 4 years ago

Yes. It works both ways. I was falsely accused of domestic abuse and, when I heard the audio of the interview with the alleged victim, the untrained female officer assured her that they would get me for it. This is a direct violation of the law.

Despite my experience, I do not generalize from it ... the woman had night terrors and was goaded into filing a false report by a coworker, and then there was the lawbreaking officer and a lawbreaking DA (who told my lawyer that she believed that we each were convinced of our stories, yet she signed an affidavit saying that she had no reasonable doubt of my guilt ... when it was entirely he said/she said, aside from major inconsistencies and physical impossibilities of the woman's statement).

I know very well the realities of rape and abuse, and I still strongly push back at the MRA types who deny them. But at the same time, it is important that members the legal system take a neutral stance as required by law, and both listen and verify.

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Nor  Jim Balter • 4 years ago

I don't know, I think it's actually pretty nice that the cop was trying to emotionally support a supposed victim. That's a pretty basic decent human thing to do. It's what you'd want were you the victim of the same crime. It's not like she was offering to falsify evidence for her.

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Jim Balter  Nor • 4 years ago • edited

You're much like that lawbreaking cop, with your contempt for the American legal system. The woman was not the victim of a crime. She did, however, punch me twice in the head and flip my 1985 bulky TV (inherited from my mother) onto the floor, putting a hole in the wall in the process. 5'10", 250 lbs, kickboxing classes 6 times/week, and self-prescribing anti-anxiety medicine for night terrors ... she had watched her house slide into Lake Pontchartrain during Katrina, and had been abused. Her issues came to rest on me.

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catherine todd  Jim Balter • 2 years ago

So sorry this happened to you Jim. I am glad you came out of this incident "innocent" and I'm sorry for the ridiculous comment made by Nor. She was SO FAR OUT OF LINE, along with the policewoman and DA. How in the world can we get justice? As least you did, partially, anyway. I hope you're alright now, as much as can be expected. I hate hearing about women doing this to men. Hate it.

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Jim Balter  catherine todd • 2 years ago • edited

Thanks, but I didn't get any justice. I was forced into a plea bargain with the threat of an expensive court trial that I would likely lose, resulting in a permanent charge of moral turpitude. I was convicted of a misdemeanor that has since been expunged, but the online investigation services flag me as a criminal. I paid thousands in bail, for my lawyer, and for my sentence, plus several weeks of anger management.

I don't blame the woman so much as the legal system. She's a troubled person who sincerely believes that I did harm to her, despite the fact that she presented two different conflicting stories, one in her testimony to the police and one in her request for a restraining order (which wasn't granted because she didn't show up in court). The DA told my lawyer that she thought that both the woman and I believed our stories, yet she signed an affidavit (as required to bring a case) that she had no reasonable doubt that I committed a crime. That's a violation of law every which way, and I wanted to pursue it, but I would have needed a team of high powered lawyers, not just one ambulance chaser -- he's a nice guy and very competent, but his clientele are mostly guilty ruffians for whom he works to get reduced sentences; a former DA who is all too aware of the corruption and disparities in the system.

P.S. I read below that you are a rape victim. I am so sorry to hear that, and I greatly appreciate your support; I know it's tough to stick to one's principles and not overgeneralize when one has been a victim.

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catherine todd  Nor • 2 years ago • edited

Nor, your statement that the female cop was "trying to emotionally support a supposed victim" is so far off base it makes me sick. Stating on tape (!) and "assuring her that they would get him for it" is ILLEGAL and a terrible thing to say about the accused person without knowing them or any of the facts.

Why do you think there is a law AGAINST the police using these kinds of statements and this kind of thinking? The police's attitudes toward the victim of rape, Marie, had preconceived notions, and look what happened to her. What makes you think something similar could have happened to Jim Balter?

There's all kinds of ways to give support and this is NOT ONE OF THEM. The accused should have rights until they are proven guilty. This female officer is as bad as the male ones who discount a rape when she counted the abuse without any corroborating facts. "We are going to get him?" Huh?

Jim Balter shares his story and the outcome is that he was INNOCENT.

You immediately make excuses for the cop who obviously doesn't believe in "innocent until proven guilty," and is BREAKING THE LAW by her misguided statement. Do you not even believe in the police following the laws? Or only when you think it's alright to break them? Why make excuses for people who are not doing their jobs with what could be dire consequences for the accused?

I am so sorry Jim for the people in this world who act like Nor. She should never have said or written what she did. I hope you can find a way to ignore or forget these cruel people in this world, even when it's so-called "unintentional." I can't, but I keep trying.

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Txzen  Carrie • 4 years ago

I really hope she doesn't make her circle of friends/family any smaller. And if a family member never mistakenly thought you were lying, congratulations. Parents are people too and can jump to conclusions like anyone else, I personally had to explain myself many times. And this was an amazing story like it said in the article rape by stranger is 10 times more rare than rape by acquaintance. ANd what did SHannon do wrong? Peggy is the one that voiced concerns... it was the cops that took a character witness concrete fact and not just as more evidence to weigh.

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Jim Balter  Txzen • 4 years ago

"ANd what did SHannon do wrong? "

Enough that she felt that she needed to apologize for it. Perhaps you should reread the article, as it's quite clear.

But Carrie's comment is wrongheaded and oh so facile ... these are people who had been kind and generous to Marie, whose love she wanted, and they both offered heartfelt apologies. To cut them out of her life would have been a case of cutting off the nose to spite the face.

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Txzen  Jim Balter • 4 years ago

I read the entire article, and it was Pam that called the cops. Shannon's transgression wasn't so clear, that is why I asked. I wasn't asking rhetorically. I really wanted to know what she thought was wrong, maybe not standing by the girl or letting the cops bully her or something I missed.

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hyancey  Txzen • 4 years ago

not allowing her to spend the night anymore because she thought marie would falsely accuse her husband of rape

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Txzen  hyancey • 4 years ago

Thank you.

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Jim Balter  Txzen • 4 years ago

"it was Pam"

Peggy, so: fail.

Try reading it again, paying particular attention to the sections containing the word "Shannon".

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Txzen  Jim Balter • 4 years ago

My bad, I was watching an office rerun.

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Snoopy  Carrie • 4 years ago

Kudos! What disgusting women they are, and for Marie to forgive them. Marie has an incredible head on her shoulders. I am so glad she was able to move on with her life and restart with her own family.

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buglor • 4 years ago

Peggy Cunningham is a child advocate, but she called the police with her doubts about Marie's story? She should have known better! Understandably she had some doubts, but to take it that far before knowing more is unforgivable.

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SGrace  buglor • 4 years ago

If she had had doubts, she should have stayed out of the way of the investigation. I'm sure she'll feel terrible about that decision for the rest of her life. Marie seems like an incredibly forgiving and amazing person.

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Silly You  SGrace • 4 years ago

I'm amazed by Marie's capacity for forgiveness, especially considering that she wasn't shown much love in her life. This is one strong woman.

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FactsSaveLives  buglor • 4 years ago • edited

Not just that. Peggy claims to "have a background in mental health."

How does someone with training in mental health not understand shock after a such a traumatic experience?

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catherine todd  FactsSaveLives • 2 years ago • edited

Peggy sounds just like the therapist I went to see in 1990, Sonja K Schoenwald, who wrote in her notes that I "attacked family members" after describing my father who beat and raped me, and how when I was 14 years old I tried to pull him off my little brother who was around 6 years old and he was beating him with a scrap piece of 2x4. She also wrote that I was "mentally ill" because I saw my father in "black or white terms" and refused to accept the fact that he may have had some "good qualities."

This was after he tried to strangle and kill me! I became an emancipated minor at age to get out of that hell-hole, and the police were just as bad to me when I called them after he strangled me, saying "a man's home was his castle and I must have done something to make him mad." This incident happened in 1966. It was only by the grace of God that a female judge allowed me to "go free" as an emancipated minor, instead of locking me up the way my parents wanted to do and the cops recommended, because I had called them... with bruises still on my neck!

Reading this story that is in the PRESENT let's me know that practically NOTHING HAS CHANGED.

That female judge saved my life in 1966, and I don't even know her name to thank her. The rest of them - from then until now - can go straight to you-know-where, right where they belong.

I cannot tell you how dejected, dispirited and depressed I am reading about this poor young woman's experience with everyone that was supposed to HELP her. Especially those two women who were her foster support persons, who called the police AGAINST HER.

How can they live with themselves? They should have been prosecuted for lying to the police and should have lost their jobs, since there was no reason for them to call the police and interfere in the investigation. There were no consequences for any of them, who all became perpetrators when Marie told what happened to her.

What is wrong with so many people in our world? I feel sick to my stomach after reading the article and all the comments... It seems that PRACTICALLY NOTHING HAS CHANGED.

If it weren't for the two female detectives that finally identified the rapist and attacker, Marie would still be a basket case, or even worse, dead from suicide.

I wish it were the other way around for all those that tried to ruin Marie's life.

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FactsSaveLives  catherine todd • 2 years ago • edited

I am very sorry for your experience but very glad you had a good judge at such a critical time in your life!

It is sickening how much people project their own ideas on how people "should" act in circumstances that they themselves have never experienced.

Reminds me of that case in Australia (which has become a bit of a punchline) of the dingo that killed a baby and dragged it away. The mother was wrongfully convicted of killing her baby becasue the jury thought she didn't act like a mother who had lost her baby should act. She wasn't wailing and crying on the stand. She was too quiet and "cold."

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Susan Hilde  FactsSaveLives • a year ago

Another horror story - in my state (Minnesota) an awful kidnapping, rape and murder of a little boy (Jacob Wetterling, 1989 I think was the year). The boy's father talked to the media, in shock, he felt numb and talked in a quiet, detached, stoic manner. People actually accused him of arranging for his little boy to be kidnapped, accused him of committing a crime because he was "too calm". The kidnapper/rapist/killer was caught recently. Here people actually accused the father of orchestrating the kidnapping of the boy. People are incredibly stupid and incredibly cruel.

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catherine todd  FactsSaveLives • 13 days ago • edited

Thank you, FactsSaveLives. I have always thought of that judge that saved me as a guardian angel, but I never realized it was "such a critical time in my life!" Looking back on it, I know I was finally FREE and there was no monster breaking down the door, but this was when I was 15 years old (and given my legal emancipation papers at 16) and then I was raped at knife point at 18 years (almost 19), just 3 years later and called an upaid prostitute by the police officer I called, even though it was the DISHWASHER WHERE I WORKED.

Until this moment, reading your reply, I never realized how critical all of this was. No wonder I have such a bad attitude towards most men and police. Outside of that wonderful female judge when I was 15, who granted me legal freedom at 16 (when the law allowed it), I was literally a slave in my own house completely controlled and beaten and molested and raped by that miserable "father" of mine who was, back then, "King of the Castle." Men could do just about anything, beating and killing their wives and children, and it was STILL all the woman's fault.

"You must have made him mad," "you brought it on yourself," "you must have asked for it somehow..." "You got what you deserved!"

I was born in 1950 and in 1969, when I was raped at knife point, NY law required 3 witnesses to the rape even though I said "if there were witnesses, they would not be witnesses, they would be PARTICIPANTS! But that was the law at the time. NC in 1997, where I lived for many more years, still has a law on the books that if a girl is drunk and raped, it is not rape since she was "unconscious and therefore unharmed." I believe this law is STILL ON THE BOOKS TODAY!

I want to write a story about how much the laws have changed in our country; and how far we still have to go.

It's unbelievable that women got the right to vote in 1920, almost 100 years ago, and we still don't have the right to "equal pay for equal work." What is wrong with our society? Are we that much different from the Taliban? We are still terrorized on a daily basis if we go out anywhere in5 the United States "alone." This kind of behavior NEVER happened when I lived in France. There, one year in 1985, there were 3 rapes that year in Paris where I lived at the time, and there were huge protests in the street! I told the French friends I had that there could be 3 rapes in a day in the U.S. and no one said anything. They couldn't believe it.

Some days I just want to give up, but I think of all the women who were much stronger than me who never gave up, and look how far we have come today. So we must continue to stand tall, tell our truths, and demand respect and equal protection under the law. God bless all those women who went before us, and all those to come in the future.

Dear God in Heaven, please show us The Way!

Gracias, amen.

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Bobismeisbob  FactsSaveLives • a year ago

And the Project Ladder people. Their whole point is for people like her.

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M. K. Hajdin  buglor • 4 years ago

Agree. I can't believe Marie forgave her. Any "friend" who called the police behind my back to brand me a liar would be out of my life forever.

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Snoopy  buglor • 4 years ago • edited

Yeah bullshit, this is the woman who claimed to care about her, yet she went to the police to tell them her own child was lying? What kind of so called parent does that? If I told my mother I was raped, she would never doubt my story and she would ESPECIALLY never go to the police to talk shit behind my back. I would consider that the ultimate betrayal. That they did this to their own foster child is repugnant. These women are despicable and I'm thrilled Marie was able to get away from such parasitic vermin to begin anew. Obviously, both women aren't fit to be foster parents, let alone capable of yielding a psychology degree (yet so many people with such a degree think that we are waiting to hearing their worthless opinions, even when they don't practice in the field). Even the way she was described as "stormy and intense" and how Peggy was was basically looking for a way to get rid of Marie because she wasn't following her orders anymore indicates to me neither of these women really cared about her, and they either wanted a kid as a friend or expected to adopt a child they could raise that they could easily manipulate, rather than a teenager who has come into the world with her own experiences. Marie was seen as nothing more than some kid with "baggage". Though the article failed to make a point of this, These very people are also what's wrong with the foster system. There is literally not enough screening going on in this country to make sure that the right people are adopting these kids, and that is how these poor children end up abused. The system is completely broken from the inside out.

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Silly You  buglor • 4 years ago

Understandably?

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Jim Balter  buglor • 4 years ago

It was a lousy and foolish thing to do, but she recognized that, apologized for it, and Marie did forgive her. Holding grudges is self-destructive.

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Iawoke004 • 4 years ago

Thank you so much. I have seen victims attacked even by female family members rape is a crime where the victim often serves a life sentence because of attacks by the people who should stand with them. My prayer is we start supporting our people instead of our criminals.

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Ron Rodriguez • 4 years ago • edited

As an ex-foster child that lived in a co-ed group home, sharing it with several girls that had been victims of sex abuse, and recalling in clear detail the type of "everything's fine" demeanor they used to wear like a mask, even smiling and giggling a lot, this story has struck my heart down to its very core, and as I'm writing this, I have tears in my eyes. To the authors of this story, and to the detectives that had so thoroughly and painstakingly researched this case, I thank you on behalf of all of my ex-foster sisters out there that had to live with the same horrific experiences locked away in their minds. My heart goes out to Marie, and I'm just glad some small semblance of good came from all of this. I wish her a happy and fulfilled life for the rest of her days. God, I can't stop crying.

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Snoopy  Ron Rodriguez • 4 years ago • edited

You sound like an amazing person who's a lot stronger for having met such incredible girls. My heart goes out to them and I hope they're okay and safe. People don't talk enough about the abuse that goes on in foster care either.

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BobTrent  Snoopy • 2 years ago

I have seen foster parents who have had their own children taken away and fostered out. My lawyer said that the CPS was "totally out of control."

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Snoopy  BobTrent • 2 years ago • edited

I believe that. CPS is under pressure to just rehouse/take way kids and when they don't, they get in trouble and can even get arrested. The system needs to be changed.

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Snoopy  BobTrent • 2 years ago

Part of the problem is the system itself. Social Workers are in a damned if you do, damned if you don't, situation, and if they don't act, they can get arrested. The system needs to change.

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Dana • 4 years ago

People speak of false reporting rates but all we're really talking about here are the rape accusations that never went to trial. There are about umpty zillion reasons a rape might never go to trial. I remember the Duke lacrosse-team case. It is bandied about in the media and among commenters as a "false accusation". What actually happened was the case was thrown out due to a perception of misconduct on the part of the prosecution. It had nothing to do with the plaintiff. And you know what? I believe her--too bad few others do. I don't care what her "profession" was.

And did you catch that little blurb about the rapist in this story being influenced by media? Specifically the Slave Leia scene in Return of the Jedi? Didn't we have some kind of kerfluffle recently in the news about depictions of SL in toys or some such thing? Even Carrie Fisher said she didn't see what the big deal was. And in normal people maybe it wouldn't have such a huge influence. But there's always that one unstable person. There's always that one. We already know that women are used and objectified. We hardly need to celebrate it.

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Bobismeisbob  Dana • a year ago

To be fair to people like Carrie how far do we go just for those few unstable people. Do we stop all action movies over shootings? Do we stop racing because kids drive recklessly? That's a much more immediate and common ones.

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Lindsey • 4 years ago

I felt absolutely sick after reading this. It's so...exactly how rape culture happens. So desperate to silence inconvenient women, until you finally find some courage--in female detectives.

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wordscanhelp • 4 years ago

my problem is with those who think she was not a victim because she did not gt hysterical or show much emotion - most women I have seen in bad circumstances are fairly stoical and being detached is a very common response

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halslater • 4 years ago

Really? Mason's actions were not a fire-able offense? I would not feel comfortable living in a town with him on the police force. Is an apology enough?

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Silly You  halslater • 4 years ago

I think you can chalk that up to the fact his actions are considered mistakes that happened because of procedural insufficiencies, and not the lack of basic human decency it obviously is.

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Bobismeisbob  Silly You • a year ago • edited

Well on the one hand he was operating under an honest lack of information about how trauma victims act.

On the other hand he had access to that information and should have been trained.

edit: I'd say it's a lack of training, education, oversight, and that sort of thing rather than lack of human decency.

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Silly You  Bobismeisbob • a year ago

I don’t know, it seems like humanity would kick in at some point. How do you react as he did - I mean as a human being - and not feel some small tug of compassion that makes you think twice? I’ll never understand it. Never

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Bobismeisbob  Silly You • a year ago

Well if he's convinced she's lying then he treats her like he treats all the other criminals he deals with. Cops often get fake sob stories so they learn to wall off from them after deciding the facts don't support it.

That's me making assumptions though, giving him the benefit of the doubt (as much as possible I try to think of why a good/sane person would act in bad ways most people aren't bad after all). It could just as easily be that he's cold and heartless.

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Susan Hilde  Bobismeisbob • a year ago

Cops interact with liars and jerks every day for decades. In a way, I can kind of understand why they hate all persons involved in a crime - hatred for criminals, hatred toward witnesses and worst of all, hatred for victims. In 1980 I processed crime reports and met many LEO's - some of them said to me "I have been in this job too long - I do not like people anymore." Police departments do little, if anything to help cops keep some of their humanity, to remind them that most people are not creeps. Too many cops hang out only with their peers. They spend much of their off duty time working as private security. They don't have anything resembling a normal, decent life.

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HenryT2 • 4 years ago

This poor girl. I don't know whether people who are accused of false rape allegations suffer as much or more than those falsely accused of rape itself, but it can't be too different. The $150,000 she got wasn't enough to repair a life torn apart.

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Jim Balter  HenryT2 • 4 years ago

I was falsely accused of domestic violence, and while everything about it sucked, I didn't suffer a fraction of the trauma that Marie was put through.

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HenryT2  Jim Balter • 4 years ago

I don't think domestic violence accusations are nearly as damaging as rape accusations. But I'm sorry to hear you went through that. False accusations and rape are both things that are hard to prove.

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Jim Balter  HenryT2 • 4 years ago

Yes, you're right, they aren't. But I'm reluctant to put false accusations of having raped on the same level as false accusations of having lied about being raped, because of the double whammy of the latter, because there's such a history of rape being denied, and because the number of actual rapes overwhelms the number of false claims of rape. I must say, though, that my experience was educational about how inept, corrupt, and illegal the legal system can be. Both the police and the DA went with their impressions and biases rather than doing any sort of investigation, and I was forced into a plea bargain through the threat of a costly court battle that could result in extreme penalties, including an unexpungeable record of moral turpitude. I fiercely support the rights of women, but it's unfortunate that they must be obtained through such a flawed structure.

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Gizzy Lerms  Jim Balter • 3 years ago

Are you a black man by any chance?

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Jim Balter  Gizzy Lerms • 2 years ago

No.

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wgone  Jim Balter • 4 years ago

But is that relevant?

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Jim Balter  wgone • 4 years ago • edited

Um, it's directly relevant to "I don't know whether people who are accused of false rape allegations suffer as much or more than those falsely accused of rape itself, but it can't be too different. " ... of course it *can* be quite different.

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Doug Tarnopol • 4 years ago

Phenomenally good job.

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Doug Tarnopol  Doug Tarnopol • 4 years ago

Just give these people a Pulitzer right now. Why wait?

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Doug Tarnopol  Doug Tarnopol • 3 years ago

And they did. See, I could have saved everyone the time and effort! :)

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Karen • 4 years ago

Just wanted to tell Marie that she is far from alone. A Va man raped his sister-in-law on video and the police still didn't believe it was rape because the victim wasn't crying hard enough. The victim is charge like Maria. The man later committed murder before they believed her.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/kat...

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ADRalston • 4 years ago

What an amazing, gripping story. I feel so bad for her and also glad that the Colorado detectives were so vigilant. And now I'm going to be sure to check my windows at night.

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Susan Hilde  ADRalston • a year ago

Yes, check your windows. I feel amazed that so many people - both men and women, but especially women - are not careful about security measures. Doors and windows must have good locks. People should have peepholes or an intercom system and not open their doors w/o knowing who it is. It is best to have good curtains or drapes. A serial rapist who did many home invasion assault in Dallas, told police that he could put his eye up to the tiny hole in venetian blinds, the hole that the cord goes through. He said if he got his eye close enough, he could see a lot, almost as good as a peephole. That was something I didn't know. People should lock their doors, even if they are going to be gone for only a few minutes. The Dallas rapist surveilled a house, noted that the husband went jogging from 5:30 to 6:00 every morning, observed that he did not lock the door (a rich neighborhood.) One morning he ran into the house, raped the wife and ran out before the husband came back a few minutes later. These headcases who stalk, follow and surveil - they are extremely smart and observant.

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Sally Strange • 4 years ago

I'm so angry.

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Solovino • 4 years ago

A true eye opener. Extremely well written story with a complete turn of events after the intro. Poor Marie deserved way more than 150k IMO. Sad story reminiscent of the tragic story of Teena Brandon.

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birnadet • 2 years ago

How come no one ever accuses men of "trying to get attention?" (whatever that even means, since it's a basic, human need. Men have far more power in government, entertainment, and athletics, but I've never heard anyone say that about a man. Not when he spikes the ball, not when he starts a twitter feud, not when he talks over people in a meeting or a courtroom, but how dare a woman try to have the focus on herself for any reason.

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Bmore Nasty  birnadet • 8 months ago

People are always accusing other people of "wanting attention"... AS IF THAT'S A BAD THING. And then when they think someone just wants attention, their gut reaction is, "I better not give it to them, because that's what they want." WTF? If you care about someone and they're letting you know they need support, why would you withhold it just because that's what they want?

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Arminds' copy of Swank  birnadet • a year ago

What do you call it when men are criticised for seeking attention with flashy cars and watches? Or when gay men wear revealing clothing? Or when a guy have a big truck and they say he’s ‘compensating for something’? Or when Guyana post gym selfies?

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Longtime_Geek • 4 years ago

My sincere thanks to T. Christian Miller, ProPublica, Ken Armstrong & The Marshall Project for such a well researched & well written piece on the scourge that is rape in modern America.

While some focus on the fact that a few police officers were complicit in branding a victim as a perpetrator, I prefer to applaud the majority of those in law enforcement who worked diligently -and cooperatively- to catch a serial rapist.

I also applaud those women brave enough to report such crimes, even in the face of possible ridicule by those sad people who love to claim "she asked for it." It takes a lot of courage to do that, and I hope we make it safer and easier for victims to feel safe when telling their stories.

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SaltineCrackers • 4 years ago

Wow... I cried for Marie and I hope Peggy... I can't even explain what I'm feeling right now towards Peggy.

I understand now why a lot of women don't even bother to report their rapes. The fact that she didn't end her life after having to call herself a liar in that God damned circle at the apartments is amazing. I wish she would have sued Project Ladder as well.

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Susan Hilde  SaltineCrackers • a year ago

She did sue Project Ladder. They settled out of court for an undisclosed amount.

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Txzen • 4 years ago • edited

Wow, what an article! Great work. So amazing to think something can happen, turn to a dream, to a lie, and back to real. The human mind is so complicated, fear, coping, everything!

They seriously thought that she made up rope marks, and bruising to sensitive areas so she could move apartments?!? I think that one may be a put on the back burner, taken under, consideration and wait for more evidence.

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investigator • 4 years ago

It occurs to me that this story in its entirety be made available to social workers, people whose work is with young women in any kind of trouble, to encourage such workers to be alert to pat answers, and to always looked for alternate explanations as to why a client is reaching out and needs help.

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catherine todd • 2 years ago • edited

When I was raped with a knife at my throat, when I was 19 years old by the dishwasher where I worked, when I first arrived in NYC, and I called the police afterwards, I was accused of "being a prostitute who hadn't been paid" and "Did I have THREE WITNESSES to the rape to prove my story was true." I said "No I didn't; if there were witnesses, they would have been PARTICIPANTS, NOT WITNESSES."

I was also told that I would have to "prove I had fought back hard enough" and as I had no bruises, since my arms were tied behind my back, I asked "what was I supposed to do, saw my neck back and forth against the knife at my throat?"

The policeman who had answered the phone continued to accuse me of everything under the sun, until he hung up on me.

* * * * *

It took YEARS for me to find out that the question about "witnesses" and "fighting back hard enough" was because this was what was required BY LAW in New York and many if not most places in the country at the time. This was 1969.

Reading this story has brought all that trauma back. When my boss at work asked me "why I was late to work" and I told him "Jesse just tied me up and raped me" he asked me IF I ENJOYED IT.

Jesse kept his job while I had to quit to get away from him. Turns out he did this to "all the new waitresses."

This is why I HATE AND FEAR THE POLICE.

Since when do they care about "helping" a person, or "keeping anyone safe?" Just doesn't happen.

* * * *

The saying at the time was "If rape is inevitable, lie back and enjoy it."

Almost 50 years later, I am fighting tears as I write this.

There is nothing "unbelievable" about this story. it happened to me, in different terms, with even friends saying I "must have done something to have this happen to me." Boyfriend threw me out in the snow when I told him what happened, and I had nowhere to go.

Now I find out how little everything has changed. What has changed?

NOTHING it seems, until women became policemen.

And to this day, I wish I had that policeman's name; the one who answered the phone. What he did was WORSE than the rapist. The rape was over in 5 minutes. What society and "the law" did lasted years. Even to this day.

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didacticus  catherine todd • 2 years ago

Thank you for writing about your horrid experience. It is important to be reminded that there was never a golden age regarding rape and crime in general, and that past statistics can be highly misleading (e.g. a lesser number of rape reports in the past may have been the result of a greater personal and social intimidation feared by victims).

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Susan Hilde  catherine todd • a year ago

I am so sorry for the awful attack your experienced. Victims of various crimes and tragedies all too often get not compassion and help, but more pain. Mental health professionals call it "secondary wounding.". Some of the sad stories I have read are from members of Parents of Murdered Children. Many of them lost all their friends, were shunned and even insulted where ever they went. Some of them relocated to get away from all that rejection. Shaking my damn head.

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Lindentreeislander • 4 years ago

1. Public defender didn't seek to exclude Marie's "confession" to false reporting on grounds that police failed to Mirandize her beforehand. Why not?

2. Not surprising that impoverished former foster child is deemed to lack credibility on closely similar case details while more well-established crime victims are believed. Who you are determines kind of justice you obtain.

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Susan Hilde  Lindentreeislander • a year ago

Amy Herdy (journalist and author) described a serial rapist - he broke into homes and assaulted women, very violent. The women who lived in lower class neighborhoods, working at unskilled/semi-skilled jobs were told "The DNA will be processed in a few months. We will get back to you." When the rapist broke into the homes of wealthy women, the DNA got processed within HOURS. Herdy said "The Statue of Lady Justice may be blindfolded to show that she is impartial ... blind, but she sure has a champagne taste."

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Rory Spence Graves • 4 years ago

Such an important story, and so well told! You don't see this quality of storytelling enough in journalism anymore. Thank you!

Also, I am so glad that she found some justice in the end. Heartbreaking.

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Bill Lueders • 4 years ago

This brilliantly told story very closely resembles the one told in my 2006 book, Cry Rape, about a woman in Madison, Wisconsin, who was raped at knifepoint, disbelieved and pressured to recant by police who used threats, lies and intimidation. When the woman, Patty, went back to her original story and publicly complained (through me, a reporter at a local paper) about how she has been treated by police, she was charged with a crime for filing a false report. (See http://billlueders.com/cry-... In that case, the charges were dropped after several months and the woman fought for years to be believed before DNA evidence led to the prosecution of her assailant in 2004, more than six years after the rape.

Bill Lueders (blueders@gmail.com

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Matt Gray • 4 years ago

Serials rapists should be executed without delay. There is no redemption for them.

Our society has people, hidden among us -- sociopaths who bear false witness, will say and do anything with ease. They, like serial rapists, delight in causing suffering and somehow in a twisted and sick way justify their cruelty to others. They would delight in pulling the legs and wings off of insects, torturing small animals, and setting fires -- all the while through an act appearing normal to those who know them. They have no moral compass or sense of integrity when it comes to things for personal gain.

A sad host of tragedies for "Marie":

-- that she had to be a lesson for Lynnwood PD;

-- that she was coerced, by an authority, into recanting and then having the weight of The System fall down on top of her;

-- that her (likely) PTSD from all of her trauma in the foster care system hinders and enshrouds her perception of new experiences, trust in and her willingness to stand up for herself;

-- that her seemingly entire support network shunned her or otherwise further abused her, doubting her veracity and lashing out at her... all stemming from their own conclusions about how they assume a victim should act.

Crime victims often confuse details about their attack(s). PTSD is a powerful thing which permeates into every new experience. Other peoples' judgments come from what they would expect someone 'normal" to do, and rarely comes from any understanding about PTSD and the magnitude of its effects.

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DrNo • 4 years ago

why must this horror story be so well written and entertaining ?

as it is written as a movie script , let somebody make the movie

in the name of rape awareness.

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Tee • 6 months ago

I just happened across this, and it struck me how this sort of self-gaslighting also occurs in victims of emotional abuse.

Once you've been made to doubt yourself -- whether due to family-of-origin issues, psychiatric history of any sort of inflicted trauma -- it becomes really easy to question your own reality once faced with any pushback.

This isn't to say no one ever lies about being victimized. Clearly this happens. But it's also true that one can be a real victim of real abuse or assault -- yet come to doubt that fact.

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didacticus • 2 years ago

The only thing I miss in this excellent article is some response by the HS 'friend' that publicly shamed Marie. Did the 'friend' take down the web pages and did she express any regret once she found out Marie was really raped?

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Bmore Nasty  didacticus • 8 months ago

If the independent living organization still exists, they should make a public apology and acknowledge that, even if she had been lying, their response was unethical and damaging.

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Susan Hilde • 3 years ago

One of the worst aspects of sexual assault is that some of the worst secondary wounding you get comes from other women. It is an old story. Women feel afraid that sexual violence could happen to them. They deal with their fear by disbelieving or shaming the victim. Working in the social services for decades, I know of so many sad stories: a five year old beaten by her mother for "leading on the abuser, for tempting the man", a teenager who was harassed out of her high school after a "girlfriend" outed her, a woman called a "whore" by her mother in law, a woman fired or forced to quit her job when female co-workers found out. Marie took awful treatment from two of her foster mothers, female managers of the subsidized housing complex and smearing from her female "friends". Very tragic. It makes me have little hope for the human race.

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Rachel Zader • 3 years ago

Thank you for writing this - I was raped in early 2014 and can't tell you how impossible the process has been to hold my rapist accountable. Reporting a rape and "going through the process" is like cutting off a limb - With a B.A. in Criminology and a former sex crimes legal course instructor, I felt more prepared than anyone could be - but I can't tell you how much negligence I encountered, how poorly I was treated when I asked for help, or how many times my credibility and "role in the crime" was brought into question. I was 20 at the time, and will likely be 24 by the end of the trial. We like to believe that SVU detectives from the famous TV show will swoop in and bring cut-and-dry justice, so to see someone covering the reality of how complicated and difficult the process is for victims, I think, is so valuable in any effort to improve the current process for survivors.

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Mayank Manohar • 4 years ago

Thank you for writing this story. Thanks alot

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America4ever • 4 years ago

Wow!

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Crip Dyke • 4 years ago • edited

As a writer, this is very well organized, very well written.

As a law student, this is perfect evidence in the argument for reform.

As a feminist, this is dishearteningly close to what years of anti-violence work has led me to expect from police departments - only 4 or 5 performances in the competent-to-excellent range for every complete, abysmal failure.

As a rape victim, this is just crushingly familiar. Though I wasn't prosecuted, and as far as I know that wasn't even considered, I was referred to "anger management" and after reporting a stalker (but not rape) I was referred to a counseling agency that, in all earnestness, suggested that I might want to meet men prosecuted for stalking and abuse to see what effect that has on their lives.

As a reader, Miller, Armstrong: thank you.

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Val Boung • 3 years ago

How many males have been charged for so called false testimony as in this case? It also represents a failure of our mental health resources and of Maria'a strength and resilientcy.

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joemc • 4 years ago • edited

I worked in law enforcement in a large eastern city for 20 years as an officer and supervisor. i have handled many initial sexual assault cases and helped get several successful convictions. I think the police were heavily influenced by the foster mother, but still do not understand the push to charge the victim. The worse part was when confronted with a similar fact pattern from another agency and brushing it off. I disagree with 2 main points of the article. The rate of false report is much higher than 5%. Most false reports are flushed out during the initial investigation, with the victims story falling apart quickly on their own. Most are teens/twenties making up stories to get out of trouble with parents or boyfriends. Usually they recant before the report is made so doesn't appear in the stats. The second point I would make only from personal experience is that specialized sex crime units don't always make for better police work. I had a sexual assault that as a supervisor I classified as an attempted rape, secured the crime scene, put out a description, and had the victim escorted by a female officer to the hospital. I contacted special victims detectives who basically said it's not attempted rape and refused to come out on the case. Their supervisor pushed to lower the classification which changed everything from who handled the case and processed the crime scene. Next tour higher up call for me to change it back to attempted rape.It was part of a pattern by a serial rapist, happy to be a small part of his going to prison.

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Word Warrior • 4 years ago

Most of us prefer to believe in a black and white world of reality, but human consciousness is so gray and has so many mysteries. My daughter had a friend growing up who confided her stepfather was raping her, swearing her to secrecy. She was known to frequently lie, creating dramatic situations, various horrors she had to deal with that weren't true. . . . And yet they were . . . at least in the only way she could communicate them. She finally went to the hospital after one rape, which proved her reality. Still, her mother accused her of lying and ended their relationship. (An ending I'm sure this poor girl intuited prior.)

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Anna Frymire • 11 days ago

Thoughtfully written in every way. Thank you.

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Lisa Butler • 11 days ago

Daniel Evan Weiss' book, 100% American, written in 1988 says "35% of American college men say they might commit a rape if there were no chance of getting caught." I am grateful Marie is still alive and was able to overcome not only the rape, but our foster child system.

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Lola1979 • 12 days ago

After seeing the Netflix series and reading this article, It resonated with me. I was a victim of sexual assault in 2007 and i know exactly what it feels like to not be believed. I felt crazy, I made myself believe that I wanted this. I called a hotline and was asked “if I was drunk, was I drinking, etc..” watching this and reading it triggered me. I was so angry at the people that didn’t believe her. Anger is what I felt. This young lady is so strong and courageous. My heart just goes out to her. I wish I could have been strong enough to go and report, but after the way I was treated I became silent. I never repeated the story again. I just wanted to forget, but you can’t. It’s with me all the time. I’m still in shock that it’s only in the year 2019 that we are starting to understand what rape is and how it effects victims. It’s heart breaking.

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baxtus • a year ago

90% of cops are merely thugs with badges

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Govskeptic • 2 years ago • edited

A long, but outstanding story. The police have a tough job with lots of crazy experiences that make up their style of questioning. The techniques involved in getting a burglar or car thief to confess are obviously not proper for a woman traumatized by a rape!

A summary of this story should be in Criminal Justice textbooks. Kids having to grow up like Maria should get much mercy from all of our collective society in every way possible!

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Susan Hilde  Govskeptic • a year ago

The interrogation style the police used on Marie - and also what the Vallejo, CA police used on Denise Huskins and Aaron Quinn - is called the Reid Technique. This technique is unethical, coercive and deceptive. It is infamous for getting false confessions from innocent people. The Innocence Project, has uncovered more than a hundred cases of people exonerated after DNA evidence proved they were not guilty - they had been browbeaten and threatened to falsely confess. This unethical technique has been discontinued in Europe and some Canadian provinces. In USA it is used by nearly all police departments and is also taught to school principals, employers and private security firms.

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Earl • 2 years ago

Thank you for the reporting. My only comment is that I recall reading about the recanted case and prosecution, but never that the victim tried to recant the recantation or that she was proven correct. That's how media works I guess, but you've performed a vital service here.

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birnadet • 2 years ago

Interesting how the women detectives started with the proposition of listening, not necessarily "believing," and hesitated to lock on to the truck, always seeking out more and more evidence, while the men came to snap decisions, and were wrong.

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Annie Blanchard • 3 years ago

This was difficult to read, but also wonderful. It's similar to my own experience in 1982 in Greensboro, North Carolina where a serial rapist was operating. Police treated me like the suspect. They had no coordination with other police departments where he was committing his crimes - I found this out from the rape center, not from them. I hope they've improved their practices, though I doubt it. This is how I learned to mistrust the police. If ever I'm raped again, I'll get a lawyer before I report it to the police.

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Susan Hilde  Annie Blanchard • a year ago

Women who read this story have said "My god, if I get assaulted, am I supposed to bring a lawyer with me when I talk to the detectives??" Others have said "If it is still this bad, I will not report if this happens - unless I absolutely have to, unless I need a report for my health insurance, the owner of my duplex, or my boss."

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Ahsoka Tano 90 • 3 years ago

Its a shame that nothing happened to the cops who harassed Marie into a false confession. Its bad enough that rape kits end up sitting on the shelves for years without getting tested, but after all this time to learn the police departments still don't bother to share information with each other. I'm amazed that any cases rape or non-rape ever get solved. The FBI should be empowered to coordinate things better between law enforcement agencies. Why aren't case files put on some national database along with DNA?

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Calamity_Jean  Ahsoka Tano 90 • 2 years ago

"Its bad enough that rape kits end up sitting on the shelves for years without getting tested, but after all this time to learn the police departments still don't bother to share information with each other."

Especially since (according to the article) as many as two-thirds of rapists are serial rapists. Testing rape kits promptly might reduce the number of rapes.

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Prattle On, Boyo • 3 years ago

$150k and half-assed apology later, the Lynnwood PD has not admitted to any wrongdoing which gives the next chief free reign to commit the same crap all over again with the next rape victim. The only lesson learned here by law enforcement is to keep up the insurance policy for the next victim's lawsuit.

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FrodoBaggins • 4 years ago

And then you have universities who ask, or tell, young women to rethink reporting an athlete for assault or rape as that will affect "his future."

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wordscanhelp • 4 years ago

Amazing story - she is a vry strong woman to bounce back each time. This could have cost her her life if she had allowed it to bet ther down. I hope the 'best friend' photographer also apologized.

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Carolyn Lee • 4 years ago

This is an incredible story. Most people (me included) never get this deep of a look into the lifecycle of a rape case, or the experiences of the people involved. Lots of love to Marie, and thanks to everyone working to turn this system around.

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solargeknowles • 4 years ago

Whew! Thank you, thank you to the journalists who wrote this piece!

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Yimji • 4 years ago

What happened to Maria, victimized first by the rapist, then victimized by the justice system, is a very common experience. It is horribly traumatic. Worse than the rape--the rapist is mentally ill. What is the excuse of the investigators? Sick too. IMO

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Neelabh Rai • 4 years ago

A must read investigative article especially for the Law Enforcement Agencies who are dealing with the Sexual Assault Crimes. Written very carefully by the Reporters. Really heart-wrenching, and worth going through this article. Showed many important points to be ignored and not to be ignored. And finally, a real breakthrough by the Detective Stacy Galbraith.

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Patricia • 4 years ago

Not sure if anyone mentioned this; but did she get at least a public apology? She was pretty much forced into humiliation in front of her peers in the program where she was living and even though the officer apologized in private, she suffered publicly.

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Elli • 4 years ago

I'm so bothered by peoples' reactions to victims. Peggy saying she was a "big Law & Order fan" and "...no one in the Lynnwood Police Department was disciplined." It's all part of the sexism against women, too.

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Chris • 4 years ago • edited

This is an amazing article, thank you. As a rape victim who never reported (it was a coworker who threatened to get me fired), I often wonder if things would've been different if I had.

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Alexia • 4 years ago

When I was in Elementary school my step father molested me. It only happened once, because I told my mom about it immediately. At the time I had no idea I could report it to a higher authority other than my mother. My mother told him to never do it again, which he never did physically. Mentally was an entirely different thing. Sexual comments whenever I was home from school, listening to me in the bathroom. It was terrible, it got worse as I got older. One day in school I was feeling depressed and decided to talk to a counselor, this was a year or two after the molestation happened. I told her about it, and of course she called Social Services. That was actually the worst thing that happened.

When they brought me in they had me talk to a social worker who I will never forget the name of as long as I live. She seemed friendly originally and asked all sorts of questions. When it first happened I had to live with my dad for a week but they couldn't let my dad have permanent placement. After that they started asking questions that were harder, things like did he have sex with you and to my knowledge to this day I don't believe so. But we slept in the same house, how do I really know? I do know that he molested me, but they couldn't do anything because they had no physical evidence. My mother and him lied and claimed nothing happened. So I got to deal with this until they finally got divorced a few years ago when I was 23.

My mother knew that it had happened all along. She just couldn't cope with losing her husband who eventually cheated on her and left her.

One of the things I can take away from all this is knowing I will never be that person if I ever have or foster/adopt children.

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ASpaceBlogyssey.com • 4 years ago • edited

Wow, what a riveting powerful story. Well done to the writers. This is probably one of the best pieces of journalism I've read in a long time. I'm so glad justice was done, but at what cost to Marie. The entire system (including the women should have protected her--her foster family) completely failed her. Her case reminds me of what the media recently falsely labeled the "Gone Girl" case. She too was raped and kidnapped and the police branded her a liar. False rape accusations are so incredibly rare. Who in their right mind would ever claim to be raped if they weren't? I wish Marie all the best. I'm glad the monster who did these terrible things will never breath free air again.

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Diane Phillipa  ASpaceBlogyssey.com • 4 years ago • edited

There is a horrible thought what if the evidence had not been so clear. Women and men like Marie are out there branded liars and forced to retract because the Police are more wiling to accept a person is lying about being raped than actually having been raped.

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Susan Hilde  ASpaceBlogyssey.com • a year ago

That case was another horror story. Denise Huskins and her boyfriend Aaron Quinn had their house broken into at night. They were tied up and forcibly sedated. Huskins was abducted, taken to a remote location and repeatedly raped. The criminal videotaped the rapes. The police went on TV - national TV and denounced the couple as liars and planned to prosecute them for the "hoax" - then the criminal was caught doing another home invasion. Data on his phone led to evidence that he had victimized Huskins and Quinn. The police locked Quinn in a small interrogation room and grilled him for 18 hours, forcing him to wear prison clothes, not letting him call his lawyer and providing inadequate food and water and bathroom breaks. Quinn and Huskins lost their jobs and had to relocated to escape all the harassment. They are currently pursuing litigation. This happened 3 years ago, 2015.

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Cait W • 4 years ago • edited

This is so important, especially in a world where even one well-publicized farce of a rape accusation turns into the "Well, BUT!" for every apologist whose favorite phrase is only "innocent until proven guilty" when a person is charged with rape. "You want to talk about how colleges handle rape accusations? Well, BUT- what about that one girl?" "You want to talk about how victims are treated? Well, BUT- what about what that one guy went through?"

This might be an extreme story of how a victim was treated, but it's hardly an isolated one. How we treat victims cycles into how victims react, often panicking and lying to make their story acceptable to a society that will judge them for the wrong words, actions, or clothing. That cycles into how victims are treated in the system, which cycles back into how we treat victims, and so on.

In an ideal world, all rape investigations would be played out with the attitude of the detectives on Law & Order: SVU. Where the victim is as much innocent until proven guilty as the attacker, where inconsistencies are reason for concern, but also an understandable part of human nature. Where we aren't breathing down the victim's neck for that one thing that will prove them a liar, allowing us to spin false narratives about false accusations when statistics indicate false rape reports are about as common as false reports of any other crime- that is, extremely uncommon. Where what a victim must face for the possibility of finding justice is not so terrifying that a life of fear, pain, and no closure is the better option.

But, as this story and countless other stories and statistics show, we don't live in an ideal world, do we?

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bhnnad • 4 years ago

Yeah this is why I never reported my childhood abuse and if I am raped I will never report. You can tell me I'm not doing my duty to protect others (and you wouldn't be the first) but I refuse to go through that.

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kbattgirl • 6 days ago

I can’t help but wonder if a man was the victim of a crime, lets say a very violent home invasion, and there were some slight inconsistencies to his story due to the trauma he had been through, and there wasn’t a lot of evidence left behind, would the cops think he was lying just because he wasn’t acting a certain way? I can already tell you the answer...NO, they would not think he was lying. This phenomenon is strictly done to women. Women are treated like second class citizens by men in positions of power. It is extremely doubtful that this will ever change because the only way it will change is if women are in charge. Marie and any woman who has been a victim of sexual assault should NEVER have to go through what she went through! Those police officers who forced a false confession out of her should have been fired and yet they weren’t disciplined in any way whatsoever. What does that say about our justice system? It tells women, don’t bother coming forward because you either won’t be believed or you will be treated very poorly. It’s a travesty!\

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Shayna Breslin • 7 days ago • edited

The 2 detectives who initiated the collaborative work to connect and then solve these cases were doing something systematically unprecedented. The structural lack of a practice of open communication, comparing crime records in neighboring jurisdictions and sharing resources between various law enforcement tiers and departments also played a large role in obscuring the truth for so long. This problem is nationwide and ongoing. We are a nation and justice system at work on it and fantastic investigative journalism (made even more accessible to the broad public in the Netflix format) is a sure fire way to show the citizenry the gross shortcomings and abusive practices employed by the members of our justice system. I give huge cheers to the reporters editors and publishers for investing such incredible sensitive work into these tragic connected stories of the dehumanization of women through rape.

I do not remove blame from anyone's shoulders in silencing, attacking, doubting and victim blaming/shaming Marie. But I do think education of officers nationally in matters such as sexual violence and domestic/family violence has been very inadequate and very slow to come as a whole. Law enforcement is a traditionally white and fraternal organization that has integrated with POC, female and non binary others very haltingly and painfully. Considering the perspectives, experiences and survival tactics of others and the various possible reactions others might have to intimate violence has been for decades a total blind spot for an armed, male, powerful, group that thrives on unity and conformity. The two female detectives brought something new to the cases. And this is not to say it could not have been done by male detectives with the right mindset and capacity for imagining what it means to be a victim. As female detectives they may have had the benefit of perspective, living on the prey side of the line to predators was likely not inconceivable to them.

In watching the series I am reminded very much of two life experiences. The first was, at 16, being beaten by my first boyfriend who I had been in a monogamous relationship with for 2 years. I was not afraid to tell my close friends what happened to me. I was not any kind of fibber or liar, I was a rather open book. To my horrified surprise many of them, who I loved and trusted, came to conclude that I was lying and I must have done something awful to HIM such as cheating and this was my cover story. Not much later I left town and left most of these relationships behind. I thought for years about how the tide had so quickly turned against me and I tried to take an approach of lovingkindness to them as I knew they were not "bad" people, these friends. I came to conclude that deep at the core victim blaming has very little to do with the integrity or believability of the victim who speaks up. I think for many people it has to do with fear and the illusion of safety. When someone guiltless is victimized violently and senselessly it IS terrifying because it "could have been me!" The mind searches for a sense of protection and safety to set "self" apart from victim. It looks for anything incongruent with the victim; what "I would do.. would have done... would have said... wouldn't have done or said.." so that this unbearable misery could not be and will never be inflicted upon ME.

I realized that my friends were choosing a reality they prefered, in which a girl "cheats and makes up a story to deflect blame" over a reality that was frightening and indigestible "a friend of theirs they liked and trusted beat his girlfriend of 2 years who they also liked and trusted." And the implied meaning the dark underbelly of that indigestible reality was it COULD happen to ME for they are as normal and "loving" a couple as I know.

The second I was trained as a victim advocate in my mid 20s for those who suffered sexual and domestic violence. I was on call and would be available to victims undergoing physical assessments and rape kits in the hospital. I had the right to ask a police officer to back off in his/her line of questioning or convey that the victim wanted them out of the room. I received loved ones at the door and shunted them aside to buffer the initial reactions which were often raw intense accusatory or all over the map and helped them shape these into responses to the trauma the victim had suffered and what research showed would help them heal survive and feel safe and intact again.

The foster mothers were not experts in victim reactions, in my estimation they both loved and wanted the best for Marie, in my estimation they were afraid and devastated that one more horrible thing had happened to her. Although, I agree, they tipped the first domino of doubt I did not see malice in it. Perhaps, like my childhood friends, they settled on the reality they preferred. They suffered confirmation bias and then were fully affirmed in their trepidations by experts, by "lack or evidence" by "inconsistencies" "experienced law enforcement officials."

If the rapist had not been so sophisticated at covering his tracks and evaporating, if the lead detective had any background at all outside his realm of drug crimes where as he is quoted "everyone lies", if info sharing was instated as common practice among jurisdictions. If Marie was not an "at risk" youth with no real legal financial or formal family support. So many factors were at play against Marie.

It was nauseating and infuriating to see her treated like a suspect and a perpetrator of lies. It was heart wrenching to see each excruciating detail of her dehumanization dragged out of her again and again and again. Then to have that coin flipped on her as she was judged as not seeming emotional or shattered "enough" in it's 10th, 15th, 20th retelling.

The thing to keep in mind is that this has been routine practice in this country for countless voiceless victims and, in many places, it still is. It's been "he said/she said" not "could this person be a serial rapist, are we looking into that?"

This is the tip of the iceberg. Hundreds of thousands of unprocessed rape kits sit on shelves in back rooms all over the nation. In places where they have pushed and processed in large numbers hundreds of serial rapists have been unearthed. We have learned there is crossover between "date" or "acquaintance" rape and serial rapists. In the past "acquaintance" rape was seen by many as more of a miscommunication than a crime. But if we find that same "acquaintance's" DNA in 40 rape collection kits over 20 years it is time to reevaluate wrong headed "he misread the situation" profiles. Activists and advocates are working tremendously hard to stop these abusive practices and institute strict rules about how a victim who reports is treated from "door to door" from first officer on scene after 911 call to exiting the courtroom. There has been progress but we still have such a long way to go.

For those riveted and righteously angered by this series I highly recommend "WHEN THEY SEE US" also on Netflix. Another abusive miscarriage of justice metered out only because of the vulnerability and voicelessness of the targets. Another microcosm of the need to evolve and evolutionize our justice system so it represents all of the communities and cultures that make up who we are.

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June • 13 days ago

I watched the Netflix series, read this article & listened to a podcast about this heartbreaking story. I have been fortunate enough not to have been subject to violent sexual assault, although I was subjected to a sexual abuse incident by the older teenage brother of a girl who was a neighbour when I was 8 years old. I fully understood Marie’s response, I didn’t tell my parents until I was 40, in fact I think I only told 2 people before then, the 2 men I was married to.

I was just so sad for her & admire her immensely for her ability to find her way through such a traumatic experiences.

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betsy w • 2 years ago

Thank goodness there some female cops.

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Null66 • 2 years ago

Gotta love Cops to have things they are so certain of they never question. Then apply such "tru-isms" to work their cases.

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Null66 • 2 years ago

People who haven’t gone through anything have ideasof how they’d react. Usually their not anything like a trauma victim. They then insist it didn’t happen. Mostly this is to reduce the anxiety that something bad could happen to them.

Truth is people act in all different ways based on a lot of factors. Never judge, just try to help victim feel safe again.

A survivor.

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Chris • 2 years ago

What an important story, particularly for those in law enforcement. Very well constructed.

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Robyn Su Miller • 2 years ago

Nice job, except in what universe do you NOT reveal whether it was Marc or Michael? Sheesh, amend this.

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Jim Balter  Robyn Su Miller • 7 days ago

Er, wut? Maybe you didn't read the whole thing.

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Chris Harmon • 2 years ago

I was raped twice in 6 months when I was 18/19, didn't report either and since I have finally come to terms with what happened to me and started talking about it (it helps some with healing) a few people have actually tried to guilt trip me about not reporting. This is a terribly sad story. I didn't dare listen to her words on what happened.

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Ra Ha • 3 years ago

"It seems silly now not to have gone to the police immediately. "

That's where it gets difficult. We feel like there should be an ultimate yes or no, find the criminal or not, but when there are reasons not to go to the police, even in our head, they do make it more difficult for the criminal to be caught and punished.

I really never thought about reporting when I was almost raped - a guy was nice enough to walk me home after a college party, and he pushed his way into my room and started kissing me and taking my clothes off. I was stinking drunk, first time I had any alcohol more than one beer. The words "sexual assault" never crossed my mind, nor did it ever cross my mind whether it happened before or after to some other drunk girl.

I also was beaten up as a teenager, and I believed it was normal. I believed that it was just "sibling rivalry" despite the concussions and broken bone that my parents tried to hide.

I am wondering though, in light of this story, how does this relate to the Rolling Stone story where the girl in question was accused of lying due to not knowing details of being gang raped?

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mirevans • 3 years ago

Another excellent article in ProPublica. When people ask where good journalism has gone, I am happy to direct them here.

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Pat Houghton • 3 years ago

Armstrong and Miller have written one of the finest articles I have read in months. Reminds me of "Spotlight" in its integrity and quality. Thank you PP for publishing this!

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Cm • 3 years ago

Wow. What a horrible person Peggy is. A young girl who had been used and abused and unloved her whole life experiences a brutal attack and a childless bitch who clearly lacks the maternal instinct be a mother makes sure she is raped by the legal system. I hope Peggy is the victim of a vicious brutal violent crime and then told she is a liar.

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stargazeman • 3 years ago

Cops never get disciplined, fired, pension pulled and perp walked for anything short of a murder caught on video (LaQuan McDonald, Chicago)...time to change the "arrangement" with contracts and the people and Cops. Let it be understood, you do this kind of stuff, you will pay a price in job security and possible prison. About sick of inept cops making it unsafe for the innocent.

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Diane • 3 years ago

What an incredibly detailed and compassionate story. The tears just won't stop for Marie and all of the victims. I am so sorry for what they all endured and grateful for the female detectives that took this to the next level to catch that evil monster. Great reporting job!

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Davia Temin • 3 years ago

You have so deservedly just won the Pulitzer for this superb, superb piece of journalism. Congratulations to you all...you take public service and investigative reporting to a new high. Proud to support @Propublica and your efforts.

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airira • 4 years ago

May I say that this was one of the finest pieces of writing that I've read in a long time. I'm in my 60's and I cried like a baby when you wrote that they found Marie's picture in his house. Beautiful and sad. I hope she finds peace and joy for the rest of her days.

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Snoopy • 4 years ago • edited

I am just as much enraged at her so called foster "mothers" (who have the audacity to call themselves that) for having the nerve to claim they care about her after deserting her and not believing her as I am at the police force who failed this young woman tremendously. But I am so happy she got out of that place and restarted a new life for herself. And that she now has started a family of her own. I really wouldn't have had the power to forgive those people but I'm glad she was able to move on. Marie sounds incredibly resilient.

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macsnafu • 4 years ago • edited

Galbraith had a simple rule: listen and verify. “A lot of times people say, ‘Believe your victim, believe your victim,’” Galbraith said. “But I don’t think that that’s the right standpoint. I think it’s listen to your victim. And then corroborate or refute based on how things go.”

This. If more police did this, there would be a lot fewer problems with rape cases, fear of reporting, false rape accusations, etc.

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Acts Of Faith Blog • 4 years ago

I cannot F****** believe this! So glad the bastard was caught, but Lynwood needs a top to bottom clean house. And those foster mothers!! WTF.

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John Ullmann • 4 years ago

Thank you so much for your collaboration. This emotionally moving story was an epic triumph of the human spirit in all our hopes. In every regard, it makes for great compelling reading through exceptional editing & continuity and contrast in the police errors vs. exceptionally good police work. Congratulations on GReAT WORK!

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Renee • 4 years ago

Generally I don't read stories that pertain to rape due to the fact it brings back memories of when I was raped at the age of 16. However, I was compelled to read this story. Due to the fact the sentence handed down in this case was the second time I had ever seen such a large amount of time handed out by the court system. Very justified as far as I am concerned. Unfortunately Marie was victimized twice, however, I believe that everyone involved in the case learned something.

The other case that handed down such a large sentence happened in Northern California in May of 1998.. He was sentenced to 137 years plus 8 months for child molest, not rape. It was the man who raped me 12 years earlier. I was so thankful that I would not have to read in the newspaper, hear on the news that he had been arrested again in connection with a rape case, or have a District Attorneys office call me to ask if allowed by a judge if would I testify. I was allowed to testify during this trial. Upon sentencing he attorney said that the time given was inhuman. I was allowed to make a statement in court after sentencing, in which I stated, "I was thankful after 12 years that I would not have to hear his name again in connection with another rape case. And what he had done to all of his victims in that 12 years was inhuman". The police department that investigated my case learned a lot and changed their policies due to the fact someone had called said they were me and had the charges dropped. That person even went to the police department and picked up my personal effects. One of those personal effects was a St. Christopher necklace that my father had given me, the man was wearing it the day he got arrested for child molest. I was told by the courts that I could have it back, but I could not bring myself to go pick it up, for he wore it during those 12 years of tormenting women and raping them.

I have to say that this was a very well put together story, with taste, class, and character. Giving the victims the utmost respect, as well as the police investigators who spent so much time to get the right person.

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katgal1232 • 4 years ago

So many women I know have been raped and 90% of them did not report. Here is why, this happens more often than not.

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dan • 4 years ago • edited

So, so many elements in this story that are classic, tragic, informative, enlightening, banal, fear-inducing, and pathetically, for our young culture, almost ordinary. Innumerable men cannot face the horrors that our women, our mothers, sisters, daughters; the producers and sustainers and nurturers of life, are so disdainfully treated. I recognize it is from their own myriad wounds, and preconceived notions, etc... part of me wants to forgive, and, being male, part of me wants to smash them for their arrogant willingness to look away. And in closing, I feel it essential to mention the now most famous monster in this benighted arena; Cosby. Who among us that deign to try and think, or be aware, could have imagined that if a story was written about more than 50 women, from all over the country, told essentially the same story, about a world famous person raping/abusing them, over decades, DECADES, that some large part of the populace, would victim blame, or not believe, or or......We have so far to go.

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April Oakley • 4 years ago

This is an awesome story. It is not just 'some' police that fail to help but also the DA. My daughter was 7 and a neighbor boy 14 at the time tried to rape my daughter. The police and DA didn't do anything but help me get a restraining order. Come to find out after I left the state and moved to another state that the DA requested the testing to have DNA swabbed from 4 months after it happened. 4 months!!! I didn't even find that out till I moved 6 months after the incident. There was witness testimony and my daughter whom is borderline autistic was able to tell the police what happened and the boy has a rap sheet and nothing was done. To this day I am still furious! But this was a good read and glad the case got solved.

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Abdul • 4 years ago

What an extensive reporting. It been a long time for me to take such a time to read through any reporting this long. Am happy Maria finally find justice.

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Danielle Gordon • 4 years ago

This was an intense read. Not to take away from other victims, but one of the thing I thought of were the cases for black Americans and police violence in this country. There are also more insidious ways police handle victims, especially minority (women and cultural). The accused have more leeway than the victims: "Innocent until proven guilty" whereas victims are considered liars until the truth is proven.

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Lemonlove • 4 years ago

This really shows how peoples perceptions of who a rape victim is and how they act shapes the laws

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Cindy Oppedal Paschen • 4 years ago

Thank you for this. I have experience with date rape and with women confiding to me about their rapes. Plural.

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kgw • 4 years ago

Heartbreaking for Marie. Whether she sees herself this way or not - she's a survivor and a fighter. I wish her and all the other victims peace.

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Patrick C Rome (Rome1410) • 4 years ago

My ex wife was raped by a friend of her family, she didn't report it because he threatened to kidnap our youngest kid together. Whenever I hear about these stories I read them hoping it was him that was caught. And it pains me to know that he got away with it. I don't know what to do since all she did was get a restraining order against him but is free to walk the streets. I'm happy oleary was caught and prosecuted just wish a cop like the one in this story would contact my ex wife and go after him but think it's too late since it happened to long ago.

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Susannah • 4 years ago

I cannot thank you enough for bringing this story to light, and for telling it with such authenticity and honesty. Far too often, women are not believed, and this contributes greatly to the lack of reporting when rape occurs. This story needed to be told, and you told it well. Thank you.

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bobinmb • 4 years ago

Excelent reporting. The individual police members were not trying to be doubting males, but they made big mistakes at the expense of vulnerable women. Obviously better training about rape artists and rape victims is necessary. Then maybe women will not be victims twice. I also wonder if it is possible for police investigators working in small cities to get the type of training they need. Small towns, small budgets? And investigative silos around each police department. The silos have to come crashing down. Perhaps by court order if necessary.

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Silly You  bobinmb • 4 years ago

If you need training to avoid coercing a rape victim into recanting her rape report, then charging her with a crime, maybe you should not be in the business of investigating rape. It seems to me that basic humanity would discourage those things.

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Gypsy Youngraven • 4 years ago

I was glad to hear that Marie seems to be healing and building a decent life for herself. I hope this continues.

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onechancefancy • 4 years ago • edited

Wow that's some whoopass journalism. Didn't know it still existed. I only checked my FB page twice, and wrote a quick snipe about trump . . . but I made it all the way through. Just one snaggle from an old copy editor . . . you raise the specter of which O'Leary - Marc or Michael - and neither the reader (nor Galbraith) knows which one has the mark on his leg. Galbraith knows *the rapist* has the mark, not which brother. Then in the bust/mark of the rapist section, you don't ID which brother answers the door. Yes, the whozit contrivance is resolved by inference . . . . many grafs later. I'd stick a Marc in the section for more of a resolving effect, around when she cuffs him. Hey, great job guys!

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LC • 4 years ago

deeply disturbing for all the typical reasons also how did someone who has been fantasizing about breaking into homes and tying up women since he was 5 get into the military? what an evil, demented human being.

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Jim Balter  LC • 4 years ago

What sort of person do you suppose does get into the military?

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LC  Jim Balter • 4 years ago

I don't know, there should be some way of weeding out the sick psychopaths though (this guy honestly sounds like a psychopath; the calculated, emotionless way he went about his crimes, the complete lack of remorse and pride and disregard for his victims)

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Silly You  Jim Balter • 4 years ago

I'm sure all sorts of people go into the military. My grandfather and great uncle come to mind. I'm certain neither are serial rapists who began criminal careers at the age of 5.

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Jim Balter  Silly You • 7 days ago • edited

"I'm certain neither are serial rapists who began criminal careers at the age of 5."

Your intellectual dishonesty is thick and heavy. There are serial rapists in the military (O'Leary was one). That your grandfather and great uncle weren't is completely irrelevant. Both my parents and my brother were also in the military ... along side plenty of psychopaths and sickos -- the military is an equal opportunity employer.

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Jim Balter  Silly You • 4 years ago

"I'm sure all sorts of people go into the military. "

Quite the point. Whoosh!

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wiseoldsnail • 4 years ago

epic truth here . i'm so sad this happened the way it did, and so thankful for the work put into publishing this story . thank you

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Dawn • 4 years ago

An amazing piece. Thanks for writing it. I am so grateful for the Colorado police officers, for persisting and catching this predator.

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shutupandknit • 4 years ago

Now imagine all the clergy sex abuse, molestation, and rapes that don't get reported because they fear being revictimized like this.

It seems that such crimes are an inconvenience to our police and society, they don't want to be faced with the victim. They don't want to be touched by such a heinous crime. People don't understand and are confused by it and react poorly to the victim instead of directing their anger at the perpetrator.

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pwakeman • 3 years ago

This is obviously off-topic, but one fact jumped out at me about this case. The little town of Lynnwood has how many cops? Propublica should take a look at bloated police departments across the nation. Lynnwood, a town of 34,000, has 79 cops. Shouldn't it be half that number? Surely, for such a small town, 2 cops for every 1000 residents ought to be overkill, but that number, 68, would be 11 less than the current roster. At a minimum, they have 15% more cops than they need, though I still think they ought be get by with 1 cop per 1000 residents. Cops cost a lot of money. Not as much as school districts, true, but still a huge waste of taxpayer money in healthcare costs and retirement benefits. I saw a similar overstaffing in a wealthy town in Upstate NY, where I once lived and worked, as well as in my hometown in the Northeast.

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Bobbie Garnet Bees • 4 years ago • edited

I wish we had investigative reporters such as Mr. Miller and Mr. Armstrong up here in Canada.

We have an organization up here that loves to hide child sexual assaults and gets away with it with impunity.

I'm talking about the Canadian Armed Forces and their defective National Defence Act which until rather recently, allowed for the commanding officer of the accused to dismiss charges that had been brought against his subordinate.

A lot of child sexual abuse got hidden on the bases.

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chofgo  Bobbie Garnet Bees • 4 years ago

I was a teenager when this happened (base brat)and this priest was always hanging around the Teen Center in Lancaster Park. I believe I may know you (actually was a friend of your older sister), but I also believe that I read on a previous article that you had changed your name, so I will not say anything more on that account (and I could be wrong and maybe it's the babysitter's sister I knew). I found out later in life how the CF hid many of these pedophile priests (was also in the CF myself after being a base brat) and was appalled as they should have been charged by the RCMP as it is a crime requiring over a 2 year sentence.

And I have personally known others (including my own family) who have been sexually abused and my heart goes out to anyone who has had to endure such perversion. I just hope you find what you're looking for.

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Bobbie Garnet Bees  chofgo • 4 years ago

Hi chofgo,

any chance you could email me at

bobbie.bees at gmail dot com

I'd like to discuss this a little more with you.

The babysitter had the older sister. I would have only been 8 at the time.

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chofgo  Bobbie Garnet Bees • 4 years ago

Sent you an email.

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Bobbie Garnet Bees  chofgo • 4 years ago

Hi, I didn't have a sister.

But, I know someone who did have a sister.

If you knew a girl named Deborah, then yes, you knew the babysitter's older sister.

Yeah, the Canadian Forces not only hid them, they moved them around too. Captain McRae had been caught with a teenage boy out on CFB Cornwallis.

According to the babysitter's father, with whom I spoke to back in July, the Canadian Forces got the rules changed so they could court martial McRae for the crimes he was charged with even though his victims were civilians and not military.

Yeah, with any luck I will be able to get the Canadian Forces to officially admit that they had a problem with child sexual abuse on the bases.

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Mike • 4 years ago

I am an investigator and found this article to be a great read and I plan on sharing it with others I work with. I read a few of the comments that are typical cop bashing but I will ignore those and focus on the great detective work that was reported on. As for the detective that made a mistake I am happy to see he is wise enough to admit it and learn from it. It is so easy to judge police with 20/20 hindsight. There were many factors that played into the decisions made, not the least that two of the people closest to her even doubted her story. Once again, overall it was great detective work conducted by a team of talented and trained investigators.

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Sparks13 • 4 years ago • edited

Wherever you are Shannon, I want to thank you for being brave, even as you were emotionally raped again by bad cops, and they are bad cops. It was easier to bully you than do their jobs. I'd like to say it's rare, but we know it's not. I can only hope that their embarrassment will, at least in Lynnwood, make police a tiny bit less likely to harass victims in an attempt to get them to recant, rather than doing their damn jobs.

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Travis  Sparks13 • 4 years ago • edited

I think you mean Marie. Shannon was not raped. They were one of the foster moms, one of the people that doubted her based on their ignorance, and incorrect notions about how a real rape victim should act.

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Jim Balter  Sparks13 • 4 years ago • edited

Marie, not Shannon. Shannon didn't act all that well either.

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DrNo • 4 years ago

why must this horror story be so well written and entertaining ?

as it is written as a movie script , let somebody make the movie

in the name of rape awareness.

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Jim Balter  DrNo • 7 days ago

It happened: "Unbelievable"

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Art Darnell • 4 years ago

Incredible story. So horrifying for these women. My prayers are with them.

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rnyboy • 4 years ago • edited

Oops, removed comment because I thought from the beginning of the story that it was another person making things up to draw some kind of attention to themselves.

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Francisco Cortes  rnyboy • 4 years ago • edited

It is interesting how reaching an unfair judgment of this article by reading just beginning could be compared to the hastily way in which police and society make judgments when talking about rape.

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Txzen  rnyboy • 4 years ago

Don't comment on thousands of words when you just read 10. Or at least admit to skimming or jumping to conclusion in your comment. We have enough knee jerks in media, politics and populace.

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Spacetrucker • 4 years ago • edited

"Her lawyer was surprised she had been charged. Her story hadn’t hurt anyone "

Only the honest rape victim's but that matters not to him/her.

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Snakeheaded Banshee  Spacetrucker • 4 years ago

Read the whole story. She was an honest rape victim.

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Spacetrucker  Snakeheaded Banshee • 4 years ago • edited

Now i'm angry, amazing article. This website is heads above the rest for journalism.

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Snakeheaded Banshee  Spacetrucker • 4 years ago • edited

You should be angry, because this article is a pretty on point description of what victims can (not will, but can) be put through when they try to report their rape. Especially if they are imperfect, which most people are. Especially if they knew their attacker, edit: which most victims do. Even if there is physical evidence. Just by nature of being traumatized, or not obviously traumatized in what authorities consider the "right" way, or not having perfect recall, or having anyone in one's life who can cast doubt on one's character, or...

Her claim was classified as "unfounded" because the police pressured her into recanting. How many more "unfounded" cases like this are there?

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mumsy64  Snakeheaded Banshee • 4 years ago

Her claim was classified as unfounded because her foster mother, with no evidence, interfered with an investigation. I am amazed that Marie forgave them, I doubt I could have.

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Snakeheaded Banshee  mumsy64 • 4 years ago

The police should have disregarded the ex foster mom's attempted interference in favor of finishing their investigation based on the evidence they'd already collected, and brought in a sexual assault support professional to advise. If they had behaved remotely professionally they would have done so and dismissed foster mom's meddling as the meddling it was, since it contradicted the existing evidence. Maybe they could have caught the guy and spared the other victims their trauma. If only. Such a failure of justice.

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mumsy64  Snakeheaded Banshee • 4 years ago

Couldn't agree more onamission, there responsibility was to the victim and the community at large, and they neglected to remember that fact.

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Philip J.  mumsy64 • 4 years ago

Was thinking the same thing. I would never speak to either of those nitwits again

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Jim Balter  mumsy64 • 7 days ago

What Snakeheaded Banshee said is true: "Her claim was classified as "unfounded" because the police pressured her into recanting."

What Peggy did was despicable, but it's the cops who formed their entire case around her doubts.

"forgave them"

What "them"? Only Peggy went to the cops to plant the idea that Marie had faked it. Shannon OTOH informed the Kirkland cops of the similarity between their rape case and Marie's details.

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WiserWords2  mumsy64 • 4 years ago

I wonder if she did it to return to a feeling of "normalcy" as quickly as possible. Much of her life had been unstable.

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Vanessa  Snakeheaded Banshee • 4 years ago

Imagine if she'd had a beer or a glass of wine before going to bed. They probably wouldn't have even taken an initial report.

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Fuck you  Spacetrucker • 4 years ago

You should be angry at yourself for making the same mistake those cops made.

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Diane Phillipa  Spacetrucker • 4 years ago

You should be angry how rape is treated is appalling. Most don't report it because they know from the moment they do they be branded a liar first, victim reluctantly second. Better to find help yourself then ever report rape.

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Spacetrucker  Snakeheaded Banshee • 4 years ago • edited

So sorry.....I just got through the first part which made it sound like a cut and dry false accusation and the lawyer's comment upset me. Like most lawyer comments do.

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Txzen  Spacetrucker • 4 years ago

On my prefered font size the article is about 45 screens long. To think the gist of the entire article would be given away in the first tenth, ,wow... this is not a news blurb.

There should be a check box in the comments "read all of it," or "read headline but want to comment anyway," "read first 40 words of 2000 word expose yet still feels like my opinion matters."

Would make it better for other commenters, or the low information commenters could be sequestered in their own section. I am joking of course but hopefully this is a good lesson toe veryone, to read it all before commenting, or just don't comment. You shouldn't expect people read what you have to write when you decline to read what others write.

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shayelea  Spacetrucker • 4 years ago

I find it curious that you couldn't see where this story was going by the time you made it to the section you quoted in your original comment. Why did you believe this article had two stories being told in parallel if you believed Marie's story to be actually false? The only thing I was surprised by was how clear the evidence of O'Leary's guilt in Marie's case ended up being. (That is, that he had a picture of her and her learner's permit.)

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queenofhearts  Spacetrucker • 4 years ago

Let's say she had actually made the story up. She had already been victimized by rape multiple times as a child. It's ok to have a heart. And obviously, she was telling the truth.

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James Ferguson • 5 days ago

Powerful reading. Interesting that all the detectives were given new names and in many cases different characters in the Netflix series. Other subtle differences in how the detective work was done. I thought the first seven episodes excellent, but the last episode was too soft and unnecessary. The most important thing is that the emotions felt right and you could really feel for what Marie and Amber and the other women went through. It is so sad that women become victimized all over again after going through such a traumatic experience. Glad to hear Marie found her bearings. Wish her all the best!

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SB59 • 6 days ago

I’m not able to hear “Marie’s account in her own words.” on my iPhone. Any suggestions?

Binged watched the Netfix series Unbelievable. Then searched Google for the truth. Kudos to these reporters and the two Colorado detectives. Susan_Susan

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Kelly • 8 days ago

I saw a documentary a few years ago in which everyone in the justice system was questioned as to how they would respond if their daughter or a woman they knew was raped. Every single one, the police, the prosecutor, the defence lawyer, the judge, every one said they would get her counselling but none would put her through a trial. The way it is currently run is unacceptable and no one should be put through it. Until there is a change, I would advise no one to go through it.

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FridaKlo • 14 days ago

Beware of triggering-

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Games • 14 days ago

I pray she has a great life and has moved on from this horrible situation.

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kaninefat • 15 days ago

And people wonder why the police is not respected.

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georges • 2 months ago

thank you for publishing this well-written and researched story. well done.

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Jason Hutton • a year ago

Hard read. And a lot more than i signed up for. But I'm glad things worked out as well as they could, in a messed up sort of way.

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Tyler Murphy • a year ago

An amazing and heartbreaking read.

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Debra Adams Akin • a year ago

Thank you.

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gladlylearn • a year ago

I saw this story on television some time ago. I remember the pink camera and the photo that corroborated the story of the woman who had been pushed to confess to false reporting.

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Jim Balter  gladlylearn • 7 days ago

Um, ok.

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Joseph Martino • a year ago

Dreams and reality have the potential to intertwine and overlap. With enough coercion, doubt and threat it becomes difficult to distinguish one from the other, as this story illustrates.

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Bmore Nasty  Joseph Martino • 8 months ago

She wasn't confused. She only recanted when she could tell the detective didn't believe her. She just wanted to get out of the situation, so she made up the story about confusing her dream and reality.

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Regulator • 2 years ago

Conclusions in search of evidence

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Jennifer R. • 2 years ago

Thank you for writing this story. Little things like this can go a long way towards helping to change how we treat rape victims. This is why we need female cops!

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mollycruz • 2 years ago

Jesus! This writer deserves some sort of award. I'd sign up for more, but I don't think I could take it. The connection might be erroneous, but it seems to me that serving in the military destroys people. This brave girl should be commended for not letting this crime destroy her. Gutsy cop work; all in all a novella worth the read. kudos all around.

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Jim Balter  mollycruz • 7 days ago

They got an Emmy.

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Storm • 2 years ago

ask them if they still charge the victims...

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Storm • 2 years ago

Police Department

19321 44th Ave. W.

Front Desk (425) 670-5600

PoliceClerks@lynnwoodwa.gov

Animal Control (425) 670-5660

Crime Prevention Specialist (425) 670-5635

Jail (425) 670-5648

Media Line (425) 670-5666

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ragingragu • 3 years ago

A well-written story that saddens, sullens, and grieves hearts. Long live longform.

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Moms Hugs • 3 years ago

I've read this three times now & each time has been a reminder to be more alert & careful about my surroundings. It should be required reading for young women in all high schools and colleges. They would not be so trusting if they read "The Sociopath Next Door" too! Something is very wrong when women do not report this crime due to its sexual nature, yet would likely report a home invasion & burglary. Further studies are needed If 65% - 80% of all rapes are not reported. A Marshall Project?

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KT • 3 years ago

is there a reason Marie's audio isn't working?

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Chuck Monroe • 3 years ago

I think Comey just confirmed it, if you want justice in America you better get it on your own.

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Jim Balter  Chuck Monroe • 7 days ago

^ maggot

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WilliamBedloe • 3 years ago

Wow...came across this story by accident. I hope this poor woman can find peace, she's gone through enough.

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True Indian • 3 years ago

What a story..!!

Excellent journalism..

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Bobs_Vendetta • 3 years ago

Some good journalistic work and some good writing.

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mcsquared • 3 years ago

Thank you for reporting on this story. And Marie, if you're reading these comments, I just want to extend to you all the love I can. Thank you for your bravery and resiliency. Deep appreciation for you. May you heal and heal and heal.

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刘明洪 • 3 years ago

audio track doesn't work...

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Leilehua • 3 years ago

Thank you for reporting this.

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Iztherapist • 3 years ago

Absolutely brilliant - thank you - and so deserving of the Pulitzer Prize you guys won yesterday. This is what journalism should look like, every time.

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Jeff_Barge • 3 years ago

Maybe the Times can now try to make amends to the readers for its 1932 fraudulent Pulitzer prize, which even the top editors admit is fraud. If we can go this past into Bill Cosby's past, then we can certainly do it for the New York Time's 1932 travesty. There's actually a book written about it that would make a great musical. How do I find out who the second place winner was that year?

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vani • 3 years ago

This is a tragic and heartbreaking story. However the conditions of our legal system concerning rape are far better than those in France where rape incidents are nearly never reported. The attitude of the police is sickeningly brutal and reporting a rape to the police may result in being raped by the police themselves. America methodology and values set the international standard. However, none of American gender sensitive protocols, while being given very vocal lip-service are ever implemented. Lurid exploitation of the facts of rape are often extracted for the unhealthy sexual appetites of the french police officers. Machism reigns and female officers are as brutal with female victims as are male officers. America is light-years ahead of France in gender politics. I am speaking of the Ile-de-France region, where Paris is located.

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Vani • 3 years ago

This is a heartbreaking story.

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Patti Soliman • 4 years ago

Do you know if Peggy continues to be a foster parent?

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Dawn Vorderbruggen • 4 years ago

Thank you Mr. Armstrong and Mr. Miller for your fine work on this story.

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Vezera • 4 years ago • edited

Thank you for writing this. It is important in significant part because of how illustrative it is of how rape cases are mishandled and the dangers of handling them poorly and assuming the victim is lying. So many people don't understand how these things can go wrong. It is important to have clear accounting answering this confusion, so that the answer can be clear to everyone, [EDIT:] and so that these same mistakes can be prevented from happening again.

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MyTwoCents • 4 years ago

I read this story to its end because I am fascinated with law enforcement, investigations. I really couldn't wait to get to the end of the story. I wonder, if the changes to rape protocols and procedures have been adopted nationally or just to the local police agencies that investigated this case? Officers make mistakes, it happens. What matters is being open to change and re-education. The detectives that didn't want to discuss their feelings, well, if they are still working investigations what I will repeat is what was written in the article "hope that works out for you".

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Jamie B • 4 years ago

What an incredibly well written article.. Thank you.

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Alice Blue • 4 years ago

I remember reading about those attacks in our local news, and I remember reading about the assault in the other state where the victim was prosecuted and called a liar. He was a very scary guy. http://www.westword.com/new...

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Jackie • 4 years ago

Great story.

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J • 4 years ago

Thank you for this...it means a lot to me.

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amaury • 4 years ago

Such a powerful story. Thank you!

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Cpt_Justice • 4 years ago

Thank you for writing this. It was excruciatingly well done. Hopefully, the police - and society! - will learn from it.

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bj • 4 years ago

It seems rare these days to find anything approximating justice. Not that 150K equals justice, but that the detectives uncovered the photo the rapist took of his terrified victim vindicating her. Marie's resiliency in face of the actual crime and then surviving the perverse policing on the part of the Lynnwood cops, the deceit and mistrust of her ostensible benefactors, that she went on with her life goes to how strong this woman is. She's had to be strong from childhood. And then there's the fine work on the part of the Colorado detectives. I hope somebody makes the movie.

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Susan Hilde  bj • a year ago

The movie will be on Netflix in 2019. The good part is that the detectives in Colorado who did superb work will get famous. They deserve to be well known. The bad part is that Marc O'Leary will also become (in)famous. There are some very sick people who send letters and money to serial rapists and serial killers and even marry them in prison. Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, Richard Ramirez and Gilbert Escobedo - raped and/or killed women and got lots of marriage offers, cash and gifts from some sickos.

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foo • 4 years ago

Good morning. It seems that the link for the audio got hidden.

It is at https://static.propublica.o...

however it is compressed with gzip.

May change ad .gz to its name and then gunzip it, or may download it from here http://vocaroo.com/i/s0iHOo...

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Sann Daniella • 11 days ago

é revoltante, tomara que de fato tenham aprendido a lição

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🇨🇦Hudson Bay • 11 days ago

RAPE AND UNLAWFUL NON CONSENSUAL BUGGERY IS SIMPLE VILE VILE VILE

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Chuck Monroe • 3 years ago

By the headline I thought this was an article about Bill Clinton.

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Jim Balter  Chuck Monroe • 7 days ago

^ ass-h

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XYZ • 4 years ago

There are just few inconsistencies which I don't understand, 1st of all, if Marie really spoke to Jordan before being attacked, why would he say she spoke to him after while still being tighten up (him telling the truth in the 1st place would have given the police a sign she might have lied?). 2nd, it was said the police run the tests and proved she had signs of being raped on her body, so why would they call her a liar after somebody doubted her and only rely on her word - it's 21st century, where you have proper resources, so you can't just rely on victim's statement. 3rdly, I don't know how it works, obviously, but seems strange the police was rulling out everybody's DNA to match the rapist's one in the end, rather than getting a warrant straight away and force him to give a sample. Moreover, it was said the police collected items from the restaurant to check the DNA when the suspect left, as far as I'm concerned it's not allowed and can't be used as evidence, since its done without permission, warrant and suspect's knowledge... Those things make the story look quite poorly, so would appreciate any answers!

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tryanmax • 4 years ago

"Listen and verify" is a very good rule, but not one I expect SJW's to go in for.

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Jim Balter  tryanmax • 7 days ago

^ a-h

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Divya Bhatt • 4 years ago

Wow, great article! Very thought-provoking!

Divya Bhatt

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Manda Reid • 4 years ago

it was hard for me at first but i had a strong group of women belive in me i still belive in myself because i cant lie about my life so i just move on if a relationship dont work i need to leave it that being said i did have love in my life the justice system was hard for me but at the end of the day i sleep well knowing im did no wrong

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Diane Phillipa • 4 years ago • edited

I cried when I read this. The poor woman brutalised twice once by the rapist and one by the police. You have to wonder how many other women the police have bullied into retracting their statement wth a rate of 21% it would suggest an awful lot? And the police have ask themselves why rape is not reported? What is so evil about this story is what Marie lost. she lost everything! what a cruel heartless tale. And of course there were no consquences for the man who bullied her to such an extent she was forced to lie. Is there ever?

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Lord of the crossing • 4 years ago • edited

A powerful story. If there were legal repercussions when Marie 'lied' then heads should roll at that department who did not pursue her case in an honest manner.

I come from a country where most rape cases are rarely reported due to the shame invoked by society who feel all 'honor' is lost for the victim and her family.Those cases which are reported sometimes take over 20 yrs for a conviction.A lot of times, the victim dies of old age but there is no justice. There are no DNA analysis or any of the steps talked about in the article. Most of the convictions are derived out of physically torturing the accused in police custody and getting their confession.

It is an imperfect system in the US and many western countries but it is by far the best in the whole world. It should obviously be improved as much as it can be and publications like this are a great eye opener.

Lastly, this man should not be breathing at this point. I know justice is more than revenge but letting this man live is an affront to all the laws of Gods & Women.

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Jim Balter  Lord of the crossing • 4 years ago

The death penalty is another aspect of a broken and corrupt legal system. The less of it the better ... while it may seem right in this case to make rape a capital offense, it would wrongly sweep up many other people, especially PoC. Check out The Innocence Project for just how much wrong comes from the death penalty.

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Lord of the crossing  Jim Balter • 4 years ago

Despite the moral qualms we as a civilized society might have, death penalty to mass murderers and serial rapists is necessary.The punishment should not be the norm but in cases where it is clear that the convict has wreaked so many lives, death is justice.

What we might debate is what are the ways to make that law,process and institutions as colorblind as possible. Some death penalty cases will still be be wrongly convicted just as some false rape cases will still be filed by women, that does not mean we abandon justice in all cases in fear that it may harm 1 out of 10000 wrongfully accused

As i said the US judicial system may be biased sometimes but it is still by far the best compared to what i see in our part of the world.

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Jim Balter  Lord of the crossing • 4 years ago

"Despite the moral qualms"

In other words, you declare yourself to be immoral and want "civilized society" to be the same.

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Lord of the crossing  Jim Balter • 4 years ago

When faced with inhumanity & evil of this magnitude, yes i want the law to be immoral and deal out death so that individuals don't have to become immoral to serve true justice.

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Jim Balter  Lord of the crossing • 4 years ago • edited

Well, at least you cop to your evil.

vvv The commenter below also demonstrates evil ... it's amazing that someone can talk about "ad hominem" and then finish like that. Pathetic indeed. vvv

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jj_dynomite_1  Jim Balter • 4 years ago

Wow, you condemn someone -- who obviously grew up in a society far different from yours -- who intelligently advocates for the death penalty for convicted murderers and rapists as "evil". If that's not abusive and ad hominem language I don't know what is.

Based on your comments up thread, seems to me your domestic violence accuser likely had a valid point. Pathetic.

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emcourtney  Lord of the crossing • 4 years ago

Disagree, the only capital crime should be murder, not manslaughter mind you, just murder. Rape is surely a heinous crime, but the victim is alive so to kill the perpetrator runs counter to even primitive law. Hammurabi's code only demanded an eye for an eye, not a life for an eye.

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Lord of the crossing  emcourtney • 4 years ago

This logic dictates castration as the response to rape, Don't think you will agree to that. Again repeat it should not be the norm but folks who commit these acts repeatedly have lost the right to life and are just a burden on society as well as nature.

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FISA702COUPDETAT • 4 years ago

Lived in , traveled through, visited so many countries that I would ask you to do the same. The only countries that have due process ot the accused is the US and Western Europe. Period. Our legal system is imperfect, but not predicated on a pretermined outcome of the ruling elite.Thank you for reading.

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Philip J.  FISA702COUPDETAT • 4 years ago • edited

Is that why we imprison a higher percentage of our population than communist China, yet still have trouble prosecuting rape?

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Polar Girl • 4 years ago

For such an extremely methodical serial rapist, his victimology was all over the map. Victims raging in ages from 18-65 and not in sequential order seems like an extremely odd victimology for such a well organized, trained, and disciplined serial rapist.

I can see more of an impulsive opportunist taking that wide of an age range of victimology but what motivates a serial rapist of this man's skill level to be so impulse and all over the map age range wise when he clearly has this skills to choose his victims far more precisely?

It just seems utterly odd.

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Ryan P  Polar Girl • 4 years ago

I imagine he chose his victims for their ease of attack, not their age. A rapist like him doesn't care about being attracted to the victim. The release they get, if at all sexual, is due to the power they wield.

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Susan Hilde  Ryan P • a year ago

Some rapists choose women who appear most vulnerable. In my state, we had 89 year old women raped in their nursing home beds. The nursing homes tried hard to cover up the crimes. It was a nightmare.

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Polar Girl  Ryan P • 4 years ago

Of course he isn't "attracted" to his victims but like a good hunter, a serial rapist and murderer usually get off on winning a tough challenge that a less skilled, more pragmatic hunter usually doesn't.

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meatpopsicle  Polar Girl • 4 years ago

this guy was not a good hunter: he is a coward looking for easy prey. he doesn't want a challenge, he wants to appease his ego with power over someone else, and whoever is easiest to overpower will do in a pinch to a coward like this waste of skin.

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Polar Girl  meatpopsicle • 4 years ago

But he didn't choose the "easiest" victims in Metro Denver or Seattle.

You can say hunters are cowards in general for using high powered weaponary and advanced tools to kill unarmed animals.

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meatpopsicle  Polar Girl • 4 years ago

how far down that road do you want to go, to empathise with this particular rapist and to understand his motivations and mindset, and why? to go that deeply into it, is that instructive to good purpose if you're not an investigative officer of sex crimes or criminal behaviourist? why devote this much intellectual exercise to understanding this guy, otherwise? maybe these are things you need to be asking yourself.

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Polar Girl  Ryan P • 4 years ago

The victimology had just as wide of a difficulty level. If anything, this type of predator would get off on a challenge.

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Chakat Firepaw  Polar Girl • 4 years ago

Speaking as someone who does have fantasies that go into really dark places[1], it's not always true that someone will have a very specific list of 'must haves' for the victim. Even with specific desires, a particular age isn't necessarily going to be one of them.

[1] N.B. The most that ever happens with them is getting typed into loose story outlines. The majority aren't even physically possible.

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Susan Hilde  Polar Girl • a year ago

Some criminals choose a particular kind of victim - young women with long brown hair, young attractive blonde women ... we had a case in my city where a rapist broke into houses of women in their 70's and 80's ... I heard of a case in a Sun Belt state where all the victims were alumnae of the same sorority .... some criminals go after only women of a certain ethnic group ... and others just assault women who appear vulnerable.

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closetothetruth  Polar Girl • 4 years ago

yep, the whole thing is probably made up. great place to float that kind of reasoning.

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Polar Girl  closetothetruth • 4 years ago

I never accused anyone of making anything up.

I was just trying to learn why a rapist with better skills then a serial rapist, forsenic police officer would have such an extremely wide victimology including race it seems.

He is the the furthest thing from an impulsive opportunist and rape is not a crime of opportunity. This man often spent months casing a single victim.

It would be like asking why professional bank and armered car robbers with ties to the Irish Mafia that spend over a month carefully casing their victims would start doing smash and grab impulse robberies like drug addicts do to simple house and store burglaries that criminals with average skills do.

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Jim Balter  Polar Girl • 7 days ago

No, it's not like asking that, because that doesn't happen and isn't at all analogous to this case.

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izraulhidashi • 2 years ago

There's no doubt that it must be difficult for both sides, since there is no shortage of females who do lie.. a lot. I can see how people that have experience being lied to about such a thing would feel wary. It's not the kind of thing you would expect from anyone. To know people are capable of doing both is disgusting and can make you lose your faith in people being decent human beings.

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FactsSaveLives  izraulhidashi • 2 years ago

"no shortage of females who do lie.. a lot."

Not true. It happens, but it is NOT common.

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Arminds' copy of Swank  FactsSaveLives • a year ago

8-10% is the proven numbers. Actual numbers could be much higher. There’s no research as it’s politcially incorrect to find out the truth in this area because the idea of questioning women about anything is seen as misogyny

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Jim Balter  Arminds' copy of Swank • 7 days ago

Your misogyny isn't subtle.

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Jim Balter  izraulhidashi • 7 days ago

^ maggot ^

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John Compatore • 4 years ago

I doubt, as your story claims, "the cops felt used" by this phony call. In fact, cops really don't mind responding to calls, that's what they do and some even ENJOY IT. But you're write that cops aren't pleased with these "attention" call,s and yes, that's a fact. That's a fact because cops responding to these phony calls takes officers away from REAL emergencies that other people are experiencing at that same time. Did someone die in a robbery because that police "beat" wasn't covered? Did someone need CPR and the Fire Department was slow to respond? Think before you fictionalize!

And, dear Pro Publica/Marshall Project - next time you want to opine on what "cop's think," try something really far out, like, oh long-shot, maybe ASK A COP!

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emcourtney  John Compatore • 4 years ago

Detective Mason filed the complaint because Lynnwood wanted the $500. Honestly, police departments in these small cities (here 34,000) are revenue agencies. They write complaints that the city court rubber stamps and the city administrators rely upon the fines to finance its operation. If it doesn't bring in money these departments aren't interested in it, and investigating felonies doesn't bring in money. I'd bet Ferguson Mo has a similar percentage of unfounded rape accusations.

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Jim Balter  John Compatore • 7 days ago

What an a-h

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nolieshere44 • 4 years ago

This story is effective and effecting, and quite well written. Some parts were a bit too agenda-oriented (husband doing the dishes, female detective saying, presumably to men, "keep working," when they asked for a bathroom break; and the watching a marathon of DHW and Big Bang seemed overly anxious to make Marie appeal to the masses; SHE DOESNT NEED TO APPEAL TO THE MASSES). With that said, I will never forget this story. But as evocative as it or any story is, we must not let an anecdote create or influence a narrative. The very stereotypical thinking that this story rails against can work both ways; and I venture to say that things have swung to being exceeding unfair to men- the accused. And this may be off subject, but I can't help but to think that what led Peggy to call the cops and basically create this whole 2nd nightmare for Marie was jealousy. It says that Peggy and her BOYFRIEND went with Peggy's daughters and Marie to a picnic and Peggy thought Marie was trying to get attention. My question is: from whom? Could it be that the 40 something got jealous bc her bf was staring at 18 yr old Marie, the young ingenue. That is another angle to this story. The scornful. insecure middle-aged woman who perpetually fears the younger woman stealing her guy. Anyway, I am glad justice was eventually served and I'd say Marie deserved at least a million.

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Jim Balter  nolieshere44 • 4 years ago

The thing "agenda driven" here is your own comment.

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nolieshere44  Jim Balter • 4 years ago

I backed up my point...you did not. Every time I post something in these threads, NO ONE disputes my points, they all resort to abstract retorts that have no backing. Welcome to that club.

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Longtime_Geek  nolieshere44 • 4 years ago

No, Marie needn't appeal to the masses, any more than you need to YELL USING ALL CAPS to make your point.

And I'll be happy to dispute one of your points. The one where you claim that "I venture to say that things have swung to being exceeding unfair to men- the accused" comes to mind. Would you care to provide links to any credible evidence that purports to show that men are the victims in rape cases at anything close to the rate women are victimized?

I've studied this subject for more than 30 years, and I have yet to see a single study that demonstrates actual facts that support your conclusion.

I don't think any of the above is "abstract" in the least, so c'mon... back up your claims with facts.

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nolieshere44  Longtime_Geek • 4 years ago

I wish your comprehension was a bit better. I'm saying that men who are accused are treated as guilty men soon after the accusation. I'm saying that the "gather the facts" approach that the detective offered in this story is not being used by society at large; certainly not the media. My evidence is: OPEN YOUR EYES!

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Jim Balter  nolieshere44 • 7 days ago • edited

"My evidence is: OPEN YOUR EYES!"

The evidence shows that you're an intellectually dishonest piece of MRA garbage. Your claim was that this piece is "agenda-oriented", and your "evidence" of this was that it mentions men washing dishes, maggot.

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Jim Balter  nolieshere44 • 4 years ago

You didn't back up a damn thing ... your nonsense about the story being "agenda-oriented" is simply you imposing an agenda on a few bits in the article that do not in fact indicate any sort of agenda.

"NO ONE disputes my points"

You don't seem to understand what the word "dispute" means.

"they all resort to abstract retorts that have no backing"

Sort of like that comment of yours ... welcome to the club that you so disparage.

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nolieshere44  Jim Balter • 4 years ago

I will let my original comment speak for itself. Your pathology compels you to blindly align with any semblance of what you "think" you stand for. I had you pegged from the start.

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Jim Balter  nolieshere44 • 4 years ago

"I will let my original comment speak for itself. "

You're the sort of person who can't even be honest about such a simple thing, but must continue with stupid and dishonest ad hominems. I have no concern for how such an intellectually dishonest person has "pegged" me.

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Jim Balter  nolieshere44 • 7 days ago • edited

My "back up" is your own comment, which is plainly "agenda-oriented". Your assertion that a mention of men doing dishes is "agenda-oriented" is transparently idiotic, and does not back up your point at all.

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queenofhearts  nolieshere44 • 4 years ago

Lol, stop fantasizing.

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wgone • 4 years ago

Worthwhile story, but you could have skipped writing it like a novel.

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M. K. Hajdin  wgone • 4 years ago

If you didn't like the way it was written, you didn't have to read it.

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Mark Bailey • 4 years ago

There are two sides to this issue and both need to be considered. First, as noted in the story rape is not always easy to prove and victims do not always sound believable. Either a great deal more training of officers is required or all rape cases need to go IMMEDIATELY to a specialized group within the police department or available to them that can sort out the details and determine what happened. Such groups need to be available to any police force.

Second, false reports do happen, just often enough to require consideration. Two obvious recent examples are the Rolling Stone story and the Duke university lacrosse team accusations.

The law places the burden of proof upon the accuser and, by extension, the police and the prosecutor. This is as it should be for the consequences are severe to the accused if falsely accused and the accuser if the perpetrator escapes prosecution. I agree that for much too long, rape has been one of the few crimes in which the victim was routinely though to be complicit. However, over reaction to the point of assuming all accusations are valid will have equally devastating results.

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la.donna.pietra  Mark Bailey • 4 years ago

Something worth noting: the Rolling Stone case wasn't actually a false report. "Jackie" never went to the police; she never filed a report. A story published in a magazine is not the same as a formal police report, and it carries no legal weight.

Something else worth noting: the consequences are severe to the victim regardless, and the default assumption that the victim is legally responsible for providing proof allows tremendous cover for rapists, allowing them to commit crimes over and over again because people like you believe that "this is as it should be."

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Mark Bailey  la.donna.pietra • 4 years ago

I concede the point on the Rolling Stone story, although the University of Virginia certainly treated the story as being accurate enough to punish the fraternity thought to be involved. I am still awaiting the outcome of the lawsuits that resulted.

However, unless you intend to turn US jurisprudence on its head and place the burden of proof on the accused, training and increased scrutiny of rape cases is probably the best solution. To always assume the accuser is correct places an intolerable burden on our system of law. It is the standard applied by totalitarian regimes. And to attempt to limit the assumption of guilt to sexual assault cases would be nearly impossible under the requirements of equal protection under the law. It also perpetuates the myth of weakling women who cannot take care of themselves and require special protection. Your comment about providing cover for rapists is only too valid, but your attribution of "this is as it should be" as my belief is not only invalid, but insulting. And note that I believe such cases should have special attention paid to them by trained specialists. What currently is the case should most definitely not be the case, but the cure must not be worse than the disease.

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la.donna.pietra  Mark Bailey • 4 years ago

The University of Virginia treated the story as being accurate enough to punish the fraternity involved because the story was published by a major magazine resulting in national attention. It carried the imprimatur of responsible journalism and truth, which is why it continues to have such far-ranging effects. UVA acted first and conducted their own investigation later, which is understandable given the number of irate alumni and parents of students demanding that they do something. That's the hazard of incredibly poor journalism, which was the real issue in the Rolling Stone case.

You know what's really insulting? Reading through a horrific article about two of most women's worst nightmares--being raped in the safety of one's home and then being ignored by the police and treated like a criminal--and then seeing a comment insisting that the most important takeaway from all of this is to ensure that no man is ever falsely accused of rape and that our justice system will crumble if we do treat victims more fairly, in line with other violent crimes. People don't jump into the comments section of articles about murder, child abuse, or kidnapping to insist that we must always assume that the accused are innocent and that false accusations are the worst thing in the world. But sure as night follows day, there is always some dude who feels the need to remind all of us with as many cliches as possible that the real issue is to protect men at all costs, regardless of how many women will end up being raped as a result.

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Jim Balter  la.donna.pietra • 4 years ago • edited

" seeing a comment insisting that the most important takeaway from all of this is to ensure that no man is ever falsely accused of rape and that our justice system will crumble if we do treat victims more fairly, in line with other violent crimes ... some dude who feels the need to remind all of us with as many cliches as possible that the real issue is to protect men at all costs, regardless of how many women will end up being raped as a result."

Your transgression here is far worse than Mark's, because that's a blatant lie ... it's not what he said at all.

The fact is that the backbone of our criminal legal system is a) "innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" -- which you ignore -- and b) that the burden of proof falls on the State, not the accuser or alleged victim or any other citizen -- which Mark seems not to understand.

When the state does its job right, as finally happened in this case, we get justice. These were good detectives who paid attention to all the evidence, made sure they had an ironclad case, and got the right guy. If it had been up to Mark, we would get the first part of this story, with the victim blamed and the rapist going free. And if it were up to you, either the jails would be filled with innocent people like the other O'Leary brother, or we would have guilty rapists getting off because of crappy police work that gets thrown out of court.

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la.donna.pietra  Jim Balter • 4 years ago

Go back and reread his comment. It starts with the false equivalence that there are two sides to this issue, both worthy of equal consideration, when ~20% of U.S. women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetimes and only a miniscule fraction of a percent of men will ever be falsely accused, much less convicted of rape. He then cites two false rape accusations over a nine-year period as proof that every rape accusation must be considered false at first to be fair to the accused. He then, as you noted, gets jurisprudence backwards by insisting that the burden of proof rests on the victim. Then he doubles down on his false equivalence by comparing rape and its awful legal aftermath for the victim (again, ~20% of women in the U.S.) with the tiny number of falsely accused men. His focus is entirely on falsely accused men. After giving the barest nod to rape victims' horrible treatment at the hands of our legal system, he then follows up with yet another statement that automatically believing victims will have "devastating results" for men.

I stand by my statement that his entire comment is focused on men and the need to protect them from false accusations.

You're making a very common mistake regarding proof of innocence. That is a trial right, not a right in the investigative stage. To quote a recent prosecution argument from a rape trial in Montana:

"The role of presumption of innocence is often confused by laypersons and courts... The presumption of innocence is a rule of evidence for the courtroom that defines a part of the accused's due process rights... It does not control the pretrial function of law enforcement officials, commanders, or magistrates."

(from Jon Krakauer's excellent Missoula: Rape and the Justice System in a College Town, which I strongly recommend to anyone who thinks they understand how rape is reported, investigated, and tried, and especially to anyone who thinks that things are "as they should be.")

If police officers took the "innocent until proven guilty" approach to investigating all reported crimes, they would never arrest anyone or ever make any headway on any investigations, because they would always presume innocence on the part of the suspect. This obviously does not happen in most other crimes. You may want to reconsider why it happens so frequently in sexual assault cases. Protip: it isn't the number of false accusations.

Actually, if it were up to me, the police would do their jobs right every time. They would treat rape cases the same way that they do all other crimes, and they would treat rape victims the way they treat victims of other crimes. They would have the appropriate training and resources to help victims and prevent criminals from hurting other people. They would, in short, do good police work. They don't right now, largely because of the default assumptions they make about rapists and rape victims, as so succinctly summarized here by you and Mark.

see more

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Jim Balter  la.donna.pietra • 4 years ago • edited

The intellectual dishonesty is noted.

"You're making a very common mistake regarding proof of innocence. That is a trial right, not a right in the investigative stage."

The Supreme Court has ruled otherwise.

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Jim Balter  Mark Bailey • 4 years ago

"unless you intend to turn US jurisprudence on its head "

You're mixed up. You wrote "The law places the burden of proof upon the accuser and, by extension, the police and the prosecutor" -- the former part of that is completely false. There is no burden of proof whatsoever on "the accuser", except when it is properly recognized as *the state*. It is the state that has the burden, not the alleged victim. This is base jurisprudence and you ought to know it if you're going to use that word or discuss it at all.

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wgone  Jim Balter • 4 years ago

That makes little material difference to the point.

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Jim Balter  wgone • 4 years ago

Nonsense.

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Mo  Mark Bailey • 3 years ago

I think the "other side" of this issue is all the other Maries out there whose stories don't have this "happy ending." Marie was redeemed years later through sheer luck that a detective in another state found a picture of her as a victim with her ID. What were the chances of that happening? What about all the other victims out there for whom this will never happen??

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Francisco Cortes  Guest • 4 years ago

Did you read the whole article, including parts like the one that says that O'Leary pleaded guilty and was sentenced to 327 years of prison?

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higheredlifer  Guest • 4 years ago

There's is nothing about this that is like the Rolling Stone story.

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afifield  Guest • 4 years ago

This story appears to be extremely well-reported, unlike the RS story. The writers seem to have done scads of interviews and also relied on court documents. As a former newspaper reporter, I was very impressed. Also, they make it very clear that the accused was identified, and they note that he was sentenced to more than 300 years in prison. So not at all like the Rolling Stone story.

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