Ursula von der Leyen

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"We have no bros and no oligarchs"

Donald Trump's second term has brought "historic changes", says EU President Ursula von der Leyen. In our interview, she explains how Europe must respond.

Interview: Ulrich Ladurner und Bernd Ulrich

Aus der ZEIT Nr. 16/2025

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"We have no bros and no oligarchs" – Seite 1

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DIE ZEIT:: Tariffs up, tariffs down, arms deliveries yes, no, the war in Ukraine is still going on – how are you doing, Ms von der Leyen?

Ursula Von der Leyen: Well. If I had been asked a few years ago if this kind of situation were possible, I would never have believed it. But such situations also help us to focus on the essentials. What matters is that I have to keep the 27 Member States coordinated and give guidance. I need to have – or develop – a plan for each crisis. And it is important that we move forward very pragmatically and very quickly, because people expect Europe to be there for them. So it has a momentum of its own that does not leave you much time to think about how you are doing.

ZEIT: There has been nothing but crises since you took office, isn't that right?

Von der Leyen: Yes. I had been in office for 90 days when the WHO declared COVID-19 a global pandemic. We weren't yet back on our feet when Putin attacked Ukraine. Soon after, we got into the worst energy crisis we've ever had because Putin shut off the gas. And now we have a transatlantic crisis. So yes, there has been one crisis after another.

ZEIT: What has changed since the start of your, and Donald Trump's, second term?

Von der Leyen: The changes have been historic. The EU has grown mainly by looking inwards; we have created open internal borders, a single market, a single currency and freedom of movement. And we assumed that economic and political freedom would eventually converge and that this would unite people. When the Wall fell in 1990, the end of history was proclaimed. Now history is back, and so are geopolitics. And we see that what we had perceived as a world order is becoming a world disorder, triggered not least by the power struggle between China and the United States, but of course also by Putin's imperialist ambitions. That is why we need another, new European Union that is ready to go out into the big wide world and to play a very active role in shaping this new world order that is coming.

Ursula von der Leyen: "We have no bros and no oligarchs"

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ZEIT: The most surprising thing was that not only did Putin attack, but also the United States, what would you call it now? Under old divorce laws, this might have been called malicious abandonment ...

Von der Leyen: (Laughs) In recent years, the need for a wake-up call has often been articulated. Today, I would say that Europe is awake – wide awake. And we have very clearly outlined that we have to go much further forward in two areas: building our own defence capability and improving our competitiveness. There is strong political momentum and a willingness within the EU to break new ground in a very creative way. The fact that we are now providing EUR 800 billion in funding for military capabilities would have been unthinkable just a few years ago. The readiness of all 27 Member States to strengthen our common defence industry would have been inconceivable without the developments of recent weeks and months. The same applies to the economy. Everyone wants to emulate our common plan for greater competitiveness, because everyone has understood: We need to stand firm in today's globalised world.

ZEIT: Kaja Kallas, the Union's foreign affairs representative, said after Volodymyr Zelensky was expelled from the White House: "The free world needs a new leader." Are you the leader of the free world now?

Von der Leyen: I don't like these labels ...

ZEIT: ...the quote does not come from us, but from Ms Kallas ...

Von der Leyen: For me, it is crucial that Europe plays a strong role in shaping the new world order that is slowly emerging. And I firmly believe that Europe can do that. Let's look back at the last decade: the banking crisis, migration crisis, Brexit, pandemic, energy crisis, Russia's war against Ukraine. All these are serious crises that have really challenged us, but Europe has emerged bigger and stronger from every crisis. And people have learned that when there are big crises, Europe certainly provides some of the big answers. That gives you confidence. And secondly: Europe has always managed the crises as a team.

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ZEIT: You have just given the question of whether you are the new leader of the Western world a wide berth. But don't you have to accept that Europe – the EU, with you at its head – has recently become the most important guarantor of Western values in the world?

Von der Leyen: The West as we knew it no longer exists. The world has become a globe also geopolitically, and today our networks of friendship span the globe, as you can see in the debate about tariffs. A positive side effect is that I am currently having countless talks with heads of state and government around the world who want to work together with us on the new order. This is true from Iceland to New Zealand, from Canada to the United Arab Emirates, as it is for India, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, Thailand, Mexico, and South America. Right now, I could have these conversations 24 hours a day. Everyone is asking for more trade with Europe – and it's not just about economic ties. It is also about establishing common rules and it is about predictability. Europe is known for its predictability and reliability, which is once again starting to be seen as something very valuable. On the one hand, this is very gratifying; on the other hand, there is also of course a huge responsibility that we have to live up to.

ZEIT: The West no longer exists. Does this mean a final farewell to the United States?

Von der Leyen: I am a great friend of the United States of America, a convinced Atlanticist. I firmly believe that the friendship between Americans and Europeans remains. But the new reality also includes the fact that many other states are seeking to draw closer to us. 13% of global trade is with the United States. That's a lot. 87% of the world's trade is with other countries. And they all want predictability and reliable rules. Europe can deliver that. We must now use this momentum to open up new markets for our companies and establish as close a relationship as possible with many countries that have the same interests as us.

"Europe has moved closer together"

ZEIT: Has Europe become stronger in recent months?

Von der Leyen: Yes, we have reacted very quickly and taken huge steps forward.

ZEIT: Does that apply to the EU only or to the whole of Europe?

Von der Leyen: Europe has moved closer together in the face of this turning point in history. I am deliberately saying Europe because, for example, we are involving Norway and the United Kingdom on important issues. We initially started cooperating closely on security and defence as a result of Russia's war of aggression on Ukraine, but this cooperation is now expanding into other fields such as trade, energy, and migration. We all share the same belief in Europe and in the European way of life.

ZEIT: Is the EU actually confined to the European continent? We are asking for a Canadian friend.

Von der Leyen: There are of course different kinds of enhanced cooperation. Canada is a close partner.

ZEIT: The USA is threatening Greenland. What can the EU do about it?

Von der Leyen: Greenlanders own the future of Greenland. They can decide their future themselves. And we are very clear that we stand in support of the Kingdom of Denmark and its territorial integrity.

ZEIT: Another question that we friends of America are asking ourselves: how do you explain the richest, most powerful, greatest democracy on earth and in world history starting to jeopardise its own existence? This must be distressing for adherents of democracy everywhere. And of course, it also raises questions for us here in Europe. Are we also at risk? Could we also end up in that kind of situation?

Von der Leyen: I think you are more likely to find the answer to the first question in America. As for us, you have to remember that a lot of European democracies are relatively young. I don't just mean the central and eastern European countries that only became free after the fall of the Wall. Countries like Portugal, Spain and Greece were dictatorships until the 1980s. There are still a lot of vivid memories in the Baltic States of parents and grandparents who were sent away to Siberia. And you can still hear horrific stories from the Franco dictatorship in Spain. For us Europeans, the awareness and memory of oppression and repression is still very fresh. So, for many of us, our collective consciousness has a much stronger sense of just how precious democracy is and how we have to constantly strive to protect it.

ZEIT: You have said that you are still friends with America. The problem is, of course, that the Americans are not friends with themselves. Most don't seem to like Europe very much either. So, what is the US: a friend, a former friend, an opponent?

Von der Leyen: I'm not a fan of these kinds of classifications. There are millions of transatlantic friendships and economic, private and cultural ties that have grown over decades, and you can't put a label on them. Right now, our relationship with each other is complicated. What is crucial in this situation is that we Europeans know exactly what we want and what our goals are. So, then we are very well placed to deal with the Americans, because they are pragmatic and open and understand clear language well.

ZEIT: The tariff conflict with the US seems to escalate and abate, and we have to wonder what on earth the basis for the negotiations is.

Von der Leyen: Reality is a strong ally. I keep pointing out how much prosperity on both sides of the Atlantic has been created by trade and that tariffs are actually like taxes on businesses and consumers. There are four points that are important to us. The first is that we are seeking to negotiate a solution. In parallel to the negotiations, we are developing countermeasures that focus on trade in both goods and services. All options are on the table. The second point is that we must be very vigilant that Chinese goods do not flood our market now because of the trade war between the US and China. So, we have protective measures in place there. The third point is that we need to build new partnerships and establish broader trade relations. The fourth point is that we need to get rid of the barriers in the single market and deepen and harmonise it.

ZEIT: Stop, stop, stop. We can still remember that during the COVID crisis, it was said that we need to diversify our supply chains and reduce dependence on individual countries, because we cannot trust the Chinese. Do we now have to trust the Chinese, because we can no longer trust the Americans?

Von der Leyen: We have been diversifying our supply chains for a long time and that applies in all directions. The aim is always to reduce Europe's one-sided dependencies. COVID brought us the experience of our over-dependence on Chinese goods, the Russian war has shown us our painful over-dependence on Russian gas and how it makes us potentially open to blackmail. Since then, we have been systematically diversifying, for example, in the field of energy. And in principle, if market access conditions are made more difficult for a large trading partner like the US, then it is clear that we are looking for new trading partners to make it easier for our companies to access new markets.

ZEIT: But the EU is still very much dependent on the USA in one, or actually two, areas. Firstly arms, and secondly the digital economy. How do you intend to reduce that dependency?

Von der Leyen: The Americans are mainly saying to us: you have a trade surplus in goods, which we would like to see evened out. I can understand that. What we are saying is ‘That is true but you have a surplus in digital services. We have a deficit and would like that to be evened out as well.’ This concerns a few US firms that control about 80% of digital services. For them, Europe is a very attractive, rich market. It has 450 million people who, in comparison with the rest of the world, have a high standard of living and free time. This means that, here in Europe, there is enormous turnover and huge profits in digital services. No firm wants to lose access to this market.

ZEIT: The package of threatened measures that you have outlined there includes the possibility of levying tariffs on digital services. J.D. Vance has already issued the threat: if you attack our high-tech firms, then we will take away the nuclear umbrella. How do you respond to that?

Von der Leyen: We are setting out our position clearly, and the Americans are doing the same. And that is the essence of any negotiations: nothing is agreed until everything has been agreed. And I think that, whether we are trading in industrial goods or digital goods, we are entitled to present all aspects of the situation.

"There is no limit to his imperialistic ambitions"

ZEIT:We must now ask you something, even though we know that it is a rather delicate matter: Does the US nuclear umbrella still exist for Europe? And does Article 5 of the NATO Treaty – the article on collective defence – still apply, in your view?

Von der Leyen: Yes, we believe it does.

ZEIT:Do you believe that Europe can prevent Ukraine from losing the war with Russia in the absence of huge support from the USA?

Von der Leyen: Putin’s objective was to take Kyiv in three days and the whole of Ukraine in three weeks. He completely failed to do so. One of the justifications for his action was that NATO had become too strong in his view. What he has achieved is that Finland and Sweden have joined NATO. At the start of the war, Ukraine was a country with hardly any weapons. Today, it is impressive to see not only Ukraine’s well-equipped and experienced troops but, above all, its highly efficient, high-volume defence industry. This shows that the country has defended itself bravely with the help of its friends. And it is extremely important that we show staying power because, from the start, Putin’s calculation has been that support for Ukraine would crumble. In fact, the opposite has happened.

ZEIT: Do you assume that Putin will ‘test’ NATO or the EU in the foreseeable future?

Von der Leyen: We know from experience that, while Putin may pause every so often, there is no limit to his imperialistic ambitions! Unfortunately, he has shown that time and again in recent years.

ZEIT:Can we continue to buy American arms that can be disabled from Washington?

Von der Leyen: Yes, we can. Nevertheless, I personally advocate ramping up production in Europe. Currently the vast majority of military equipment bought by Member States comes from outside Europe. That also means that the related good jobs and R & D are also outside Europe. I would like to see more being done in Europe in the future. That could also mean American firms developing and producing goods in Europe. The crucial point is that the billions that we are now investing should also have a positive impact on Europe’s economy, extending well beyond the defence industry.

ZEIT:Europe is being attacked from several sides because its identity is based on democracy and freedom. Is ecology still part of that identity?

Von der Leyen: It definitely is, because we all know how much our future depends on it, not just as far as the climate is concerned. There are also huge market opportunities at stake here. Decarbonisation will continue across the world, with or without the Americans. There is a good reason for China’s huge investment in e-mobility – they know that the mobility of the future will be clean mobility. There is a good reason that the Gulf States, with their huge reserves of oil and gas, are investing heavily in green hydrogen – they can see this trend across the world. We are leading in many clean technologies. And we are staying the course, not just for economic reasons, since young people would never forgive us if we failed to tackle this fundamental challenge.

ZEIT: If the EU’s climate goals are to be met, then in two years’ time, as planned, the carbon trading system must be extended to the transport and construction sectors, under the name of ETS2; in simple terms, it will be more expensive for people to fill up their vehicles and heat their homes. Are you still committed to that, as there are forces that are trying to undermine it?

Von der Leyen: Carbon trading is definitely one of the smartest instruments of climate policy. This has been proved by ETS1, which is based on the principle of the market economy. If you pollute, you pay, and if you do not want to pay, you can make your contribution through innovation in clean technology. It has worked. Ever since ETS1 was introduced, the economy has expanded, emissions have fallen and the revenue from trading in certificates has been channelled into innovation and research. In other words, exactly what we want. The key point with ETS2 is that there should be a social safety net from the start. We need to develop this valuable instrument intelligently and carefully.

ZEIT:One way or another, the climate will remain an existential issue. However, right now, Europeans are busy with other things: Russia’s war of aggression, Trump, tariffs…

Von der Leyen: Yes, but good politics means staying the course over the long term and perseverance.

ZEIT:Given the new state of affairs, does the EU need to become more of a ‘state’? Should there be more majority voting?

Von der Leyen: he European treaties offer enormous scope, which is far from exhausted. To address the current crises, we should make bold use of the available levers and apply them to Europe’s advantage. Let me give you an example: energy is traditionally a Member State competence and will remain so. However, we really learnt a lot together during the energy crisis. For example, we set up joint energy platforms to procure energy more cheaply at global level. In this way, we developed enormous market power that would have been unthinkable before. The same is true of health policy: the ability to build joint preparedness capacity, for example, for vaccines, would have been unthinkable without the experience of the pandemic; now it exists. In defence policy, the European Union had virtually no role. This, too, has changed completely, and all within the possibilities provided for by the European treaties, as is right and proper. We could have theoretical discussions about potential treaty changes, but we should never forget that life is in the here and now and Europeans expect us to act quickly and pragmatically.

"The polarisation is heavily orchestrated from outside"

ZEIT:We could even switch our perspective, what with the Americans now bringing themselves into crisis. Perhaps the way the EU is organised, including its culture of dialogue, is the most appropriate model for a very large democratic community of states.

Von der Leyen: In past crises, Europe’s approach of striking a balance has proven enormously successful. Of course, I realise that particularly in calmer times, our internal discussions can seem very piecemeal and time-consuming. This is both the beauty and the bane of democracy. But in a crisis, when there is pressure from the outside, a very targeted swarm intelligence quickly sets in. When there are many people who contribute, consensus is broader and the direction is followed more faithfully. I notice this in our legislation too: Council, Parliament, everyone is involved. In times of crisis, you have to respond quickly because that is what the situation demands. And lo and behold, it suddenly comes together.

ZEIT: Is the EU, with its participatory and interwoven structure, better suited to dealing with polarised societies?

Von der Leyen: There is one thing we should not underestimate: the polarisation is, in part, heavily orchestrated from outside. Via social media, Russia as well as other autocratic states are deliberately interfering in our society. It is not a question of sides. Views on both sides are being amplified because the real goal is to polarise and divide our open societies. But the European Union also has a big advantage. Inequalities are less pronounced here, in part because we have a social market economy and because the levers of power are more widely distributed. We have a stronger, broader middle class than, for example, the USA. And it is also highly adaptable since – in a very European way – many people are involved in finding the best solutions for their businesses. Constant efforts to strike a balance cost us a lot, and may be slower, but human solidarity is greater because the middle layer is stronger. It is a huge asset that we barely talk about and are barely aware of. In America and other regions of the world, the gap between the very rich and the very poor, between those with power and those without, is enormous, which makes it easier for those who sow division.

ZEIT:In recent years, right-wing populists such as France's Marine Le Pen and Italy's Giorgia Meloni have taken a far more moderate line on European issues. Does the EU have the power to tame the ‘evil spirits’ within?

Von der Leyen: Yes, I think people have realised that in times of crisis, solidarity within a strong community is something truly precious, and has helped everyone navigate serious crises better. So whenever we overcome a crisis, this is also a victory for Europe and the European ideal. May I sing Europe’s praises?

ZEIT:Absolutely. To my knowledge, self-exaltation isn’t banned under the European Constitution.

Von der Leyen: Europe is still a peace project. We don’t have bros or oligarchs making the rules. We don't invade our neighbours, and we don't punish them. On the contrary, there are twelve countries on the waiting list to become members of the European Union. That's about 150 million people. In Europe, children can go to good schools however wealthy their parents are. We have lower CO2 emissions, we have higher life expectancy. Controversial debates are allowed at our universities. This and more are all values that must be defended, and which show that Europe is more than a union. Europe is our home. And people know that, people feel that.

ZEIT:That sounds surprisingly bold.

Von der Leyen: Yes, it's often easier to see your own strengths in somebody else’s mirror. You can make money anywhere in the world. But where do you want to raise your children? Where do you want to be if your health isn’t great? When you get older? When you might need help from the community? When you think about it carefully, there are many very good answers which Europe has to offer.

ZEIT:We certainly don't want to dampen your ‘europhoria’, but many people associate the EU with bureaucracy first and foremost. Why is that?

Von der Leyen: Well, I think it has something to do with our processes, the way the Commission, Parliament and Council interact, because the 27 always have to agree. Inevitably, you make a lot of compromises, and these often complicate things. But we are now hard at work to change things that are redundant, superfluous, complicated, and so on. It must become easier again to do business in the European Union; that is the goal, and I am very pleased that this enjoys the broad support of Parliament. It's working well. The first Omnibus Law that bundles together such simplifications is on its way.

ZEIT:The omnibus is Europe’s chainsaw? How typical.

Von der Leyen: Yes, indeed.

Translated by…

This interview has been edited and condensed for length and clarity. This is the English translation of the original German version.

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