Need advice with DIC prism

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#1

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by colupaika » Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:58 pm

I need advice on choosing the correct DIC condenser prism form a water immersion lens.

My microscope: Nikon E800

Objectives:

1) NIKON FLUOR 60X / 1.00 DIC H

2) NIKON FLUOR 40X / 0.75 DIC M/N2

Condenser: C-CU DRY 0.9

Nikon has two kinds of condenser DIC prisms, marked for Dry or Oil, but not for water. Which kind I should use in this case for each of the objectives?

My current idea is to use NIKON DIC-H CONDENSER PRISM FOR HIGH NA DRY 0.9 for 40x objective.

Would it also fit 60x, or should I get other prism for 60x, like NIKON MH X2 DIC-NH CONDENSER PRISM FOR HIGH NA OIL 1.4 ?

Grateful for any suggestions.

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MicroBob

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Re: Need advice with DIC prism

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by MicroBob » Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:10 pm

I don't know this system but would assume this:

The condenser prisms will be made to fit the condenser type, oil for oil condenser, dry for dry condenser. Then of cause the prism has to fit to objective too.

Bob

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colupaika

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Re: Need advice with DIC prism

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by colupaika » Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:24 pm

I must add since this is not obvious from the objective specs that both objective are WATER IMMERSION, and their NA values are different from dry optics.

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apochronaut

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Re: Need advice with DIC prism

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by apochronaut » Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:09 pm

I'm a bit confused by the information provided. Several times you mention "condenser prisms". I assume you mean the prism in the condenser housing. The prisms themselves are not oil or dry or water, just the condenser is. Since the prism and the condenser are two separate functional devices and can be interchanged for other types, despite the fact that they need to work as a coherent pair, it would seem that the objective specifications would dictate which of each to use.

If you have water immersion DIC objectives, then would the main concerns not be that you have DIC prisms that match the objectives : it looks like maybe H in one case and M/N2 in another? Aside from that, in lieu of there not being a water immersion condenser, there must be some recommendation from Nikon, which condenser should be used with those prism/objective combinations.

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colupaika

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Re: Need advice with DIC prism

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by colupaika » Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:32 pm

apochronaut wrote:I'm a bit confused by the information provided. Several times you mention "condenser prisms". I assume you mean the prism in the condenser housing. The prisms themselves are not oil or dry or water, just the condenser is. Since the prism and the condenser are two separate functional devices and can be interchanged for other types, despite the fact that they need to work as a coherent pair, it would seem that the objective specifications would dictate which of each to use.

If you have water immersion DIC objectives, then would the main concerns not be that you have DIC prisms that match the objectives : it looks like maybe H in one case and M/N2 in another? Aside from that, in lieu of there not being a water immersion condenser, there must be some recommendation from Nikon, which condenser should be used with those prism/objective combinations.

Thank you, apochronaut. The reason I ask here is that I could not get this information from my local Nikon representative, maybe the microscope is 'too old' for them. What I see in the lists of equipment is that there are dry, oil or water objectives, but condensers and condenser prisms (the prism in the condenser housing, you are right) are marked either dry or oil, not water. And Nikon marks the DIC prisms with 'oil' or 'dry', for example (not sure if this forum allows me to insert the link):

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/NIKON-DIC-H-CON ... 1921226146

This means (for me) that I have to select one of the two kinds for my water lens. For 60x I have the exactly matching it nosepiece DIC slider, and I would like to select the correct prism either.

So, do I understand correctly, that selecting the DIC prism I must look only to the Nikon letter code? For example, if the objective is marked DIC H (like my 60x), then the prism in the link above is the one I need?

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MicroBob

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Re: Need advice with DIC prism

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by MicroBob » Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:01 pm

The beam spreading action of the prism will depend on the condenser in use. So it all has to fit together, condenser, prism and objective

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colupaika

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Re: Need advice with DIC prism

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by colupaika » Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:06 pm

MicroBob wrote:The beam spreading action of the prism will depend on the condenser in use. So it all has to fit together, condenser, prism and objective

OK, MicroBob, thank you. Although you are not from Nikon, I presume, do you know if there are Nikon condensers made for water immersion? Maybe it would be indeed better for me to start choosing the correct condenser, not the prism.

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MicroBob

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Re: Need advice with DIC prism

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by MicroBob » Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:28 pm

I don't know the Nikon system and have no documents about it.

Generally I know water immersion only from objectives, but have never heard from condensers. To find the right combinations you either have the documentation or are willing to experiment. You might get the information from the importer in your country or from Nikon Japan.

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apochronaut

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Re: Need advice with DIC prism

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by apochronaut » Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:31 pm

colupaika wrote:

apochronaut wrote:I'm a bit confused by the information provided. Several times you mention "condenser prisms". I assume you mean the prism in the condenser housing. The prisms themselves are not oil or dry or water, just the condenser is. Since the prism and the condenser are two separate functional devices and can be interchanged for other types, despite the fact that they need to work as a coherent pair, it would seem that the objective specifications would dictate which of each to use.

If you have water immersion DIC objectives, then would the main concerns not be that you have DIC prisms that match the objectives : it looks like maybe H in one case and M/N2 in another? Aside from that, in lieu of there not being a water immersion condenser, there must be some recommendation from Nikon, which condenser should be used with those prism/objective combinations.

Thank you, apochronaut. The reason I ask here is that I could not get this information from my local Nikon representative, maybe the microscope is 'too old' for them. What I see in the lists of equipment is that there are dry, oil or water objectives, but condensers and condenser prisms (the prism in the condenser housing, you are right) are marked either dry or oil, not water. And Nikon marks the DIC prisms with 'oil' or 'dry', for example (not sure if this forum allows me to insert the link):

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/NIKON-DIC-H-CON ... 1921226146

This means (for me) that I have to select one of the two kinds for my water lens. For 60x I have the exactly matching it nosepiece DIC slider, and I would like to select the correct prism either.

So, do I understand correctly, that selecting the DIC prism I must look only to the Nikon letter code? For example, if the objective is marked DIC H (like my 60x), then the prism in the link above is the one I need?

You may have seen this alreadyhttps://biochimie.umontreal.ca/wp-content/uploads/sites/37/2016/02/TE2000_20DIC_20manual.pdf

It seems from this manual that Nikon did/does have a water immersion condenser . Not much is said though, just high N.A.

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abednego1995

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Re: Need advice with DIC prism

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by abednego1995 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:21 am

The C-CU Universal Condenser was meant for the early E800,600 series.

It has 2 interchangeable condenser tops, Dry 0.9 and Oil 1.4 (No water immersion top available for C-CU.)

(Yes there is a water immersion top for the T-CT-E condenser, but it will not fit upright microscopes)

It doesn't matter at that NA which top you use for water immersion objectives (to use precise jargon, "dipping" for those lenses.) but don't immerse the dry top, it will seep in and ruin it.

What matters, is choosing the right prisms.

The condenser prisms are matched for NA. NL-G (<0.5), M(0.5<1), H(1<). Note that there are a set of prisms for each condenser top, color coded green for the dry, and yellow for the oil immersion top.

The required prism for the 40x is "F 40 WI" and the green dry "M" for the objective and condenser respectively.

For the 60x, you'll need the "F 60 WI" and the green dry "H".

The N,N2 type DIC prisms are for the next generation of DIC, so don't mix them up. It will not work (optimally).

Cheers,

John

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colupaika

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Re: Need advice with DIC prism

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#11

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by colupaika » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:49 am

abednego1995 wrote:The C-CU Universal Condenser was meant for the early E800,600 series.

It has 2 interchangeable condenser tops, Dry 0.9 and Oil 1.4 (No water immersion top available for C-CU.)

(Yes there is a water immersion top for the T-CT-E condenser, but it will not fit upright microscopes)

It doesn't matter at that NA which top you use for water immersion objectives (to use precise jargon, "dipping" for those lenses.) but don't immerse the dry top, it will seep in and ruin it.

What matters, is choosing the right prisms.

The condenser prisms are matched for NA. NL-G (<0.5), M(0.5<1), H(1<). Note that there are a set of prisms for each condenser top, color coded green for the dry, and yellow for the oil immersion top.

The required prism for the 40x is "F 40 WI" and the green dry "M" for the objective and condenser respectively.

For the 60x, you'll need the "F 60 WI" and the green dry "H".

The N,N2 type DIC prisms are for the next generation of DIC, so don't mix them up. It will not work (optimally).

Cheers,

John

Dear John,

Thank you so much for your comprehensive answer. This is exactly the information I needed. I already have the prism for 60x (marked FL 60 W, hope it is similar enough to what you recommended), so I will look for condenser 'green' ones H and M, and for the F 40 WI nosepiece prism. It seems that they are still can be found on ebay.